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Upwork Terms of Use violations

Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
11 of 19

Upworks' ToS documents are intended to be helpful. They can be informative and helpful for Upwork users, such as clients and freelancers. They can be helpful for Upwork itself.

 

But publicly posted ToS documents do not "govern" Upwork. Upwork is a website and it functions based on software source code as well as based on how Upwork's employees operate the site.

 

The same is true of every website.

Community Leader
william b Member Since: Jan 3, 2015
12 of 19

Preston,

 

What a disappointing response from a CG whose advice I greatly value.

 

In my country (USA) we're learning that the nauseating, duplicitous equivocation of- 

"Yes, we could do something to alleviate this terrible situation we've created which flies directly in the face of our most vital written values...but we're not obligated to do so."

ALWAYS leads directly to disatrous results FOR EVERYONE!

 

When we knowingly and actively flout our own best values in order to serve our own selfish, short-term interests, it ALWAYS leads to a collapse at every level, with the ones on the bottom of course getting the worst of it.

The pitiful rationalization of- 

"Well, everybody does it this way..."

is not only an embarrassing distortion, it's equivalent to pleading ethical bankruptcy.

 

In the professional world, this kind of business/cultural shell game always leads directly to actual bankruptcy. (choose youur US example for many but start at Wall Street)

 

I believe we can all do a little better.

 

 

Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
13 of 19

William:

I'm not making any kind of moral judgement. I'm simply describing mechanics:

 

A website's functionality is a product of source code and database data.

 

The experiences that a site's users have with customer service personnel are based on the behavior of those personnel.

 

Websites can "read" and "understand" things such as PHP source code or Apache directives. Websites can not "read" or "understand" human-intended text, including legalese presented as ToS.

 

Nothing untoward or controversial is intended by pointing this out.

 

These observations have nothing to do with how Upwork or any of its representatives or any other company "should" act.

 

I think you may have sensed a difference of opinion when there was none.

Community Leader
william b Member Since: Jan 3, 2015
14 of 19

P,

 

OK. 

I clearly do not understand any point you were trying to make regarding source code and database data (or even if you were trying to make one).

I trust, however, that my point is perfectly clear. (and at the very least, as clear as UW's Terms of Use)

 

I'm always happy to agree to disagree with you.

Or just agree as the case may be.

 

Community Leader
william b Member Since: Jan 3, 2015
15 of 19

VK,

 

If you do not believe that obvious, intentional and deliberate fraud is "harmful to the community"  then clearly all of our UW days are numbered.

 

Thanks for all your professional efforts towards maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace!

Community Leader
william b Member Since: Jan 3, 2015
16 of 19

VK,

 

Of course Upwork (or you) need not ever "assume the obligation" of maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace, and you may always choose to ignore intentional, deliberate and/or obvious violations of the ToU along with repeated, ongoing fraud.

But to be clear, there is no subjective "interpretation" of Upwork's very clear, reasonable, strictly legal Terms that will explain this willful ignorance.

 

As I specifically mentioned, in far too many cases post information is egregiously misleading and obviously fraudulent. (as time tells)

UW and the UW "Help & Support" Center (and you, apparently) can either choose to honor its own Terms, or choose to blithely ignore their own strict definitions in favor of dodging all professional responsibility. 

As FLs we can all do the same.

 

It goes without saying that this constitutes a stunningly arrogant amount of professional apathy to maintain.

The very good news is that when we are all out of work, we won't have to wonder why it happened.

 

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts in that direction.

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
17 of 19

Frequently, Upwork staff posts interpretations of their TOS that seem to have required them to read the sentences in a random order after having been translated through six languages and then tossed into a blender. Some of those interpretations appear to me to be blatant violations of the law (as I've posted here about more than one discussion of terms).

 

This is not that. The interpretation suggested by OP stretches the interpretation of "information" far enough that it would snap, curl up, and shoot up into the stars like something Wile E Coyote rigged up. 

 

It's one thing to suggest that Upwork SHOULD second-guess whether clients mean what they say in job postings (FWIW, I personally think they should absolutely not)--that's a matter of opinion. The terms thing, not so much. 

Community Guru
Rafsun S Member Since: Feb 10, 2018
18 of 19

A few months ago, I won a job which was described boldly as "Need Today", also the job was described very well in the post! Obviously, I would not apply if there wasn't a clear description! And after sending him the proposal, he responded within probably 10 minutes and after a few minutes of the interview, he sent the offer. I did his job within 6 hours, he released the fund and ended the job with a wonderful feedback. And I still often work with him.
So, it might be fraud sometimes. At the same time, a client might truly need something urgently! We don't know it. But we can check the client's hire rate!

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
19 of 19

Rafsun S wrote:

A few months ago, I won a job which was described boldly as "Need Today", also the job was described very well in the post! Obviously, I would not apply if there wasn't a clear description! And after sending him the proposal, he responded within probably 10 minutes and after a few minutes of the interview, he sent the offer. I did his job within 6 hours, he released the fund and ended the job with a wonderful feedback. And I still often work with him.
So, it might be fraud sometimes. At the same time, a client might truly need something urgently! We don't know it. But we can check the client's hire rate!


I also have made some great money on urgent job posts. I have also avoided them when I can't make those deadlines. 

 

As a client, if I posted someone that I needed today, there could be all sorts of reasons that I do not hire. Maybe I posted on numerous sites and someone else on one of those sites was the best fit. Maybe something happened to me and I can no longer do my part on the work. Maybe something happened workwise that made me realize that even if a FL was available, it was no longer feasible for my company to do this work. Maybe my grandma died. 

 

The fact that no one hires on a job does not make it fraud, even if they felt they needed someone urgently. Clients post jobs on what they think they need at the time. When a FL shows up that they like, they may very well choose/suggest a different structure than originally planned to better fit the working relationship. This is also not fraud. This is called negotiation. 

 

We would all like Upwork to do more to identify fradulent postings, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

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