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Upwork needs to be FAIR to all freelancers

atlinguist
Community Guru
Alexandra H Member Since: Jul 30, 2015
21 of 34

Having recently hired twice on Upwork, I have to agree with Isaac that the "suggested" list is pointless. I don't know about other clients, but I never feel as if I should wait for the suggested freelancers' replies to my invitation. If they don't apply to my RFP (because they're busy, not interested or not aware of it), there's a reason for it and I don't need to know about it.

 

The "hidden" list is something I don't quite understand. I had a few proposals hidden for my job, and except for one or two cases where I thought I knew the reason (hiring off platform, different specialisation, etc.) I felt a bit unsure about what this was meant to signal to me.

 

What I DO want as a client is the choice (right at the start) between a) inviting all suitable candidates (plenty of scope for Upwork to show off with its wonder algorithm) and b) throwing my RFP out there into the wide spaces of the freelancer universe to see what comes back. I also want the automatic status update function we had on Elance, so that I don't have to go running after my freelancer with questions about how work is coming along. And last but certainly not least, I expect freelancers to actually read my request. Few people seem to have a problem with selling themselves. Wonderful. But what about my needs?

 

Just a few thoughts from a novice client and sole proprietor. 

xalixo
Active Member
Isaac S Member Since: Sep 15, 2015
22 of 34

Thank you Alexandra for giving us the perspective of the client. I also think these "suggested" providers are most times already busy with other projects. These are the kind of Freelancers you find with 10 simultaneous open jobs while the majority freelancers cant get a single job!

 

Its important to stress that just because a person has so many successful past jobs or hours worked does not necessarily mean he is technically better than the "newbie" who in fact may be a genius. But just because he is new, the system favors the old boy over him. How then does he get up? I find this very ELITIST. Of course the elite will not complain.

 

As for the "hidden" list, the word itself is scary. Why hidden? They could have chosen a better term than "hidden". Its like someone is watching you or something?

 

Good recommendations as well. I winder whether the peole that matter read these posts?

vladag
Community Manager
Vladimir G Community Manager Member Since: Oct 31, 2014
23 of 34

Hi all,

 

I can confirm that in this new design of the applicant page there is no hidden folder. Instead, there is an Archived folder, where you’ll find proposals you’ve declined or archived, as well as those withdrawn or declined by the freelancer.

 

Hope this helps.

Untitled
xalixo
Active Member
Isaac S Member Since: Sep 15, 2015
24 of 34

Vlad, that is good to know. Can you also tell us in this new design whether all applications appear in ONE list sorted by date of application like it was in Elance? Also, how does the "recommended" system work in this new design? Who exactly gets recommended and based on what criteria? Does it involve extra connects as with sponsorship in Elance? Then if you could also clarify on the "suggested" list. How is that list compiled? And does it appear first before all other lists the way it appears in that snapshot? Which list makes the landing page for an open project from the client's side? And finally, has the design been rolled out as the working design or you are still testing it?

 

Would appreciate your answers to these questions. Thanx.

jsutherland
Community Guru
Jean S Member Since: Oct 22, 2007
25 of 34

@Isaac S wrote:

Vlad, that is good to know. Can you also tell us in this new design whether all applications appear in ONE list sorted by date of application like it was in Elance?

 

No they do not. Some automatically go to the Archived List if they are inappropriate for the job and do not meet the qualifications I specified.

 

Also, how does the "recommended" system work in this new design? Who exactly gets recommended and based on what criteria? Does it involve extra connects as with sponsorship in Elance?

 

The first thing a client sees after posting their job is 10 Freelancers that are "supposedly" a good fit for your job. They are usually worthless. At the top they "Recommend" 3 freelancers and they may or may not be qualified. The algorithm is seriously messed up and no one has a clue how it works. No idea with "sponsorship" means. Not applicable here.

 

 

Then if you could also clarify on the "suggested" list. How is that list compiled? And does it appear first before all other lists the way it appears in that snapshot?

 

No one knows how it is compiled. I'm not sure what you mean by suggested.

 

Which list makes the landing page for an open project from the client's side?

 

Not sure what you mean by landing page. When you go back to your job posting you have the option to click on Recommended, Applicants and then the Hidden/new wording Archive.

 

I strongly recommend you post a job, make it private so you can cancel it, and see the process or actually hire someone to do a small job.

 

 


 

xalixo
Active Member
Isaac S Member Since: Sep 15, 2015
26 of 34

Jean thanx for that breakdown. What do you mean when you advise that I post a job to see how the process works? I am registered as  Freelancer. You mean there is somewhere I can go to post a job? I dont see it on my dashboard. Or create another Client account? Confused on that one.

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
27 of 34

Hi Isaac,

 

Proposals are not listed by the time they were sent. They are listed according to how strong and relevant they are to the job posting. Make sure you apply to the jobs within your skill set and write great proposals that specifically address client's requirements and questions and you will appear at the top of the list.

 

Check out this article if you are interested in using Upwork for hiring freelancers.

~ Valeria
Upwork
xalixo
Active Member
Isaac S Member Since: Sep 15, 2015
28 of 34

Valeria, thank you for clarifying the issue of proposal listing. You say they are listed according to "how strong and relevant they are to the job posting.....great proposals that specifically address client's requirements" This is exactly what I was talking about. Unless you tell me there is a HUMAN who manually reads proposals before they are listed, I find it hard to believe that a machine can diiferentiate a "strong" proposal from a weak one? That it can know a job that is "relevant" from one that is not? That it can know a job that address the "requirements" well? What AI or "metrics" are these? Does it base on length of cover letter? Length of answers to questions? Or what?

 

I believe there are certain things that only a human being can tell. I wonder why Upwork is obsessed with "helping" the clients and trying to make it "easier" for them. When in fact it just complicates the entire system. A number of clients I invited over from Elance left because of this complexity.

protoman_2k
Ace Contributor
Rejith P Member Since: Sep 13, 2015
29 of 34

Isaac,

 

Principally, I do not agree with the view that HUMANS can rightly assess the relevance of the job application - unless this HUMAN is the "perfect" one.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, ultimately whoever does the check on relevance is doing by a "logic" - if it is humans - it will depend on the capability of the human. If it is done by algorithm - in my opinion, it will be more consistent across and the algorithm can be continuously improved.

 

I do understand your views - that algorithm (or humans) shouldn't interfere in the deciding the relevance of the applicants - but imagine if a job post has say 50-60 applicants, it becomes easier for the client to make his choice if Upwork presents a "recommended" list to him. As long as the client isn't complaining, I doubt Upwork would be willing to change this arrangement.

xalixo
Active Member
Isaac S Member Since: Sep 15, 2015
30 of 34

Thanx Rejith. My point is that no one should be doing any relevance checks. Not a human and not a machine. The reason why I said a HUMAN could be better is because the content of a job posting needs to be read and understood before the applications can be considered. A human can do that. A machine cant.

 

For example, I want a wordpress website with LiveDrive cloud storage. A newbie applicant who is an expert at LiveDrive and WordPress applies and also an "experienced" freelancer good at web design with a number of good reviews and hours but with no knowledge of LiveDrive also applies. In this scenario, since a machine cant read, it would think the latter freelancer is the most relevant because of his stats. Where as In reality, the former newbie expert at LiveDrive and WordPress is the better option.

 

By offering the latter as the recommended choice, the client will select him and probably end up with a poor result where as had he gone through the proposals by himself like it was at Elance, he would have read the proposal by the LiveDrive expert and get a better product.

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