Upwork's mediation is unfair!

[almukhambetov]

Recently my client asked for a refund after he accepted and paid for my work.

I did my job, the client paid, and only after that, he realized that the work I did does not meet their standards. I think that's his problem with not being able to provide clear feedback or ask to revise the deliverables during the work.

I wrote here about that situation: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Client-is-asking-for-a-refund-but-the-job-is-already-com...

The mediation process started recently and the mediator proposed three options:

1. To revise the work
2. To refund partially
3. Or we go to arbitration which exceeds the amount of dispute

I have to choose one of these to 'part ways amicably' as the mediator said.

In a private conversation, the mediator said 'It is true that you are not required to refund and you will not be forced to as the funds have already been withdrawn from your end'.

So for me, there is no single reason to participate in this dispute. Should I really choose one of the proposed options? And what if I'll decide to not choose one?

[prestonhunter]

You are correct.

The mediation process is unfair.

But Upwork does not claim that the process is fair.

[almukhambetov]

Fair means that Upwork does not violate its own T&C. So Upwork does violate their T&C?

[25005175]

No, adherence to the ToS is not "fair" - that is simply legal rule-following. "Fair" is a dispensation of justice that adheres to some moral/ethical paradigm.

[gilbert-phyllis]

Mediation is as fair or unfair as the parties make it. UW's only role is to encourage the parties to reach an agreement and resolve the dispute. I don't know the details of your situation (and lack the time and interest to know) but encourage you to think in practical terms.

- Making some revision might be worth your while if it will make the client satisfied with the final deliverable and no longer feeling he is owed a refund.

- Giving a partial refund might be worth your while if revision is not worth your time and/or client won't accept revision but will accept partial refund.

- If the amount in dispute is less than the arbitration fee, then either you or the client can bluff the other by paying the fee. If one pays and the other doesn't, the one who paid wins everything.

- A fourth scenario is neither of you initiates arbitration but then the client files a chargeback through their credit card company and claws their money back that way. UW will attempt to rebut the chargeback but with no guarantee of prevailing. The client will be kicked off the platform (chargebacks are against the ToS) but you wind up losing the money.

Fairness doesn't enter into it. It's business, and it's all conducted according to Terms of Service that we all agree to comply with when we open our UW accounts.

[almukhambetov]

Interesting...so if a client can be an absolute nightmare person and the only person who suffers is a freelancer? 🙂

[gilbert-phyllis]

Getting entangled with "an absolute nightmare person" in any context, business or personal, will likely result in some type and amount of "suffering." As a business person, one of my key skills is recognizing and avoiding involvement with nightmare persons. Occasionally, a client turns out to be different than I thought or we manage to miscommunicate and a project goes sideways somehow. By "occasionally" I mean it's happened to me no more than half a dozen times over several decades of FLing. When that happens, I look for a solution that minimizes financial cost and reputational damage to myself. I don't think of it in terms of suffering or experiencing nightmares. Most humans enjoy a certain amount of drama in their lives and that's what my library card and Netflix are for. 

Regarding chargebacks specifically, the risk is the same for any vendor accepting credit card payments in exchange for goods or services. The only way to avoid it is to use a different type of transaction (which means foregoing UW). Chargebacks are rare, I just mentioned it as one of the possible scenarios when a client is unhappy and can't or won't negotiate with the FL to find a resolution.

[25005175]

It's business, and it's all conducted according to Terms of Service that we all agree to comply with when we open our UW accounts.

---

Well, except for the chargeback part. 😒

[gilbert-phyllis]

Not sure what you mean. Chargebacks represent a risk intrinsic to credit card transactions. It's not UW-specific and there's nothing UW can do if the cardholder's bank claws back the money. 

[25005175]

My comment was just about how chargebacks relates to ToS-compliance.

[wlyonsatl]

It is a very inadequate system, Nail A.

Upwork should stop saying fixed price projects have payment "protection." Nothing in Upwork's procedures and rules allows a freelancer to just say, "No" to an unreasonable client who wants the work to have been done at a fraction of the amount originally agreed to by both client and freelancer.

Upwork really needs to start providing freelancers with more information about whether clients take advantage of their out-of-balance advantages in dealing with not wanting to pay for the work freelancers do for them. This can be via cancelling a project mid-stream, demanding a refund or using a chargeback. Upwork knows these things. We freelancers have every right to know them as well.

At the very least a client on a fixed price project should not be allowed to release all milestones on a project and then come back later and say they don't like the freelancer's work after all. The time to complain is while the contract is active. Afterward, both client and freelancer should move on.

Start using hourly contracts if you can, Nail A. There is real payment protection on those types of projects.

[almukhambetov]

I don't really understand their 'part ways amicably'. I did my job, I got paid, and I don't care anymore. But looks like Upwork tries to please every inadequate client.

Good point on hourly contracts - thanks, will try.

[58e0f06c]

Experiencing the same thing . My client received work . And severed contract . Lied to upwork and continues to lie . Upwork is biased for the client despite proof . It's an absolute mess . No job security with upwork. 

[58e0f06c]

Also the client is free to abuse the freelancer and upwork doesn't care . The abuse alone should be evidence the mediation process has broken down and result in freelancer pay out accordingly on the basis the client is an absolute drama queen and can't act professional therefor is highly likely lying etc. 

[25005175]

Something to remember: Upwork will never tell you what investigations/decisions are being made regarding another user. So your former client could be getting suspended for abusive language and you would never find out through any official channel.

[d2ae2062]

It is unfair for both parties.

I'm a client now and a freelancer promised me to complete the job in 40 hours in one week succesfully or fully refund me.

Guess what,

After two weeks and about 75 hours, He delivered incomplete wrong version of what I did with some fake screenshots.

I disputed the hours and upwork decided that he has only 9 hours of low activity and decided to refund me only those 9 hours,

What should I do no? over paid, not delivered and also no files. Pure loss

[prestonhunter]

re: "I'm a client now and a freelancer promised me to complete the job in 40 hours in one week succesfully or fully refund me. Guess what, After two weeks and about 75 hours, He delivered incomplete wrong version of what I did with some fake screenshots. I disputed the hours and upwork decided that he has only 9 hours of low activity and decided to refund me only those 9 hours, What should I do no? over paid, not delivered and also no files. Pure loss"

If it was important for you to receive work done with a certain level of quality, or if it was important for you to save money, then why did you only hire one freelancer?

I am very sorry that you were disappointed by your experience, but what you are saying makes no sense.

You only hired ONE FREELANCER.

So you can not say that the quality was low compared to other freelancers.

You can not say that he worked too slowly or billed too many hours compared to other freelancers.

You can't compare.

If you had hired more than one freelancer, then you would have been able to evalute this freelancer's work after an hour or two, compared to the work being done by the other freelancers doing the same sort of work. And you would have known he wasn't a good fit for this job, and you would have been able to fire him.

If you are serious about saving time and money as a client, you should proactively decide to NEVER ask for a refund, and NEVER dispute. That is how serious clients get work done and save money.

[tlsanders]

Mediation isn't about offering solutions. Upwork isn't the decision-maker. They try to see if they can get you and the client to agree on something. How can it be "unfair" when they're not deciding anything? 

[wlyonsatl]

Upwork mediation is absolutely about "offering solutions."

Not requiring or demanding solutions, but offering options that both client and freelancer might find acceptable.

[27976d7e]

How difficult is the revision? Could you try and excersise some deplomacy? Just having a black and white appoach isn't alway good? Obviously, I agree that they are in the wrong. 

[lysis10]

You just found out my number one reason why I no longer work with escrow contracts. lol Hourly only for me, and this is no longer an issue. Now, they can pay me and rate me badly and move on. Everyone is happy.

[prestonhunter]

Well said.

If Upwork clients found that fewer and fewer freelancers were willing to accept fixed-price contracts, I think the platform would be much better off.

MOST work niches would be better for clients and freelancers alike if clients had such a hard time hiring with fixed-price that they just gave up and started using hourly contracts for everything.

Pay the people you hire for their time. That's not a complicated concept.

(And I say this knowing that SOME freelancers really know what they're doing with fixed-price, and make it work well for them. But I think they're the exception.)