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02fba6ef
Community Member

Upwork should refund connects for jobs that expired but didn't hire!

Upwork should refund connects for jobs that expired but didn't hire! This would make the Upwork approach more balanced between clients and freelancers as the system is now a bit less favorable to freelancers and more favorable to clients.

95 REPLIES 95
tlsanders
Community Member

I'm so baffled by how so many freelancers believe they should be rewarded if their proposal doesn't appeal to a prospective client. 

Jobs with over 50 proposals certainly would have at least one proposal that would appeal to a client.

You might be surprised.

Perhaps, I am tempted to post a job as a client to see what comes out, I simply cannot believe that out of 50+ proposals nothing appealing would come out.

If you do that and post a fake job, close it at least before it expires so everybody gets their connects back. 

Don't violate the Terms by posting a fake job. Read the client posts.

I did this test once. I posted a job, I received 20+ proposals. Between those 20, 10 were terrible, 10 were very good proposals, and 2 were realy exceptioal (with high rates, but they were realy good!)! These 2 were freelancers that realy got my attention and I would hire them for sure if I had money to pay their rates. Based on the best costs+benefits, I would hire someone between the 10 goods ones. Then I closed the job and the connects was returned to all of them.

When posting a job, there is freelancers of all kinds trying a chance, the good ones, the extraordinaries, and also the terrible ones.

Posting a job as a test isn´t fake, don´t hear those "lawfull neutral" aligned people (yes, I´m refering to D&D rules) . The purpose of posting a job as a test, to knows how it works, to feels like a client, is completely diferent from posting to scamm others.

It's weird how people think it's okay to waste people's time crafting proposals as long as they get their connects back. 

 

The connects were worth...what? $.60? 

 

How many dollars did they lose writing a proposal for a fake job instead of doing paid work? 

Edit.

Well, there you go, Bojana - one of the reasons that "clients" don't hire - despite receiving 50 proposals - is that your fellow freelancers like Andre think that it's fine to post fake jobs and waste everyone's time.

Hi Christina, I am new here so am trying to get a flavor of how things work. My feeling after few weeks is that the platform isn't balanced for either clients or freelancers. There is a lot of "time waste" that goes into the process both on the part of clients and freelancers. As to why people don't hire, it's hard to tell. I can personally report that out of 23 jobs I applied over the past few weeks 5 hired, that's 22% hire rate (not that good, if it were 60% I'd say, wow, great). On another note, I am not sure if serious clients who post real jobs actually care about other fake job posts, don't even know if they would be aware of other fake posts to be honest. All the best!

No, I'm sure that clients don't care if some posts are fake - that wasn't my point at all. You were wondering why some jobs close without hire, and Andre provided you with one reason: because some of them are fake jobs posted by other freelancers just to spy on their competitors or to see how their own proposals rank.

Hi Christina, indeed, this could be the reason, but I imagine these fake posts would still be minority. I wonder why people don't hire because I have seen excellent job proposals that seemed real, that weren't complex posted by clients that seemed interested and they still couldn't find anyone on UW to hire. I believe a lot of people on UW are not-skilled and just rooming around, but a lot of people are high-skilled individuals able to produce good results, so that's why I cannot wrap my head aorund all of this.

Thanks for sharing this, I was really curios as to how it looks for a client at the other end of the tunnel. I doubt I will be posting fake jobs, I just said I was tempted to do that, but I would also imagine that out of say 50+ proposals 2 or 3 would be really exceptional and good to hire. All the best!


Andre A wrote:

I did this test once. I posted a job, I received 20+ proposals. Between those 20, 10 were terrible, 10 were very good proposals, and 2 were realy exceptioal (with high rates, but they were realy good!)! These 2 were freelancers that realy got my attention and I would hire them for sure if I had money to pay their rates. Based on the best costs+benefits, I would hire someone between the 10 goods ones. Then I closed the job and the connects was returned to all of them.

When posting a job, there is freelancers of all kinds trying a chance, the good ones, the extraordinaries, and also the terrible ones.

Posting a job as a test isn´t fake, don´t hear those "lawfull neutral" aligned people (yes, I´m refering to D&D rules) . The purpose of posting a job as a test, to knows how it works, to feels like a client, is completely diferent from posting to scamm others.


Yes, it is a scam.
You play with the hopes of those who submit a proposal.
Plus you make them spend connections for nothing. I've seen that you closed the contract.
Stop encouraging this to be done. All very nice.


Maria T wrote:


You play with the hopes of those who submit a proposal.

Worse, you steal their time--time they could have been using to do paid client work, or that they may have needed to find their next gig.

Yes, it is a scam. I do not appreciate people who violate the rules and waste freelancers, precious time, energy, and hopes for a job. If you want to "feel like a client" then scrape some money together and hire someone.

You haven't spoken with clients.

Sounds like you've never tried to hire on Upwork. 

 

Still, let's pretend for a minute that what you say is true, and a few of the proposals are decent. Does that mean they're the best the the client got through any of the many different channels they are probably using to look for talent? And if not, why should freelancers get connects back when none of them were the best even though they wouldn't get them back if one of them was? Either way, the person lobbying to get their connects back failed to win the gig.

the-right-writer
Community Member

Upwork's business model is all about clients. They don't care about freelancers because 80% of them could leave, and the platform would do fine. There are millions? of freelancers flooding the clients with unskilled and scamming profiles and proposals. Upwork just got rid of the horrible connect for interview free-for-all, the last thing we need is more of that client killer.

 

Yes, it's frustrating when clients never hire, and then you see the same ads on a dozen other platforms. However, the solution is not giving freelancers who are not going to get hired more connects to annoy the clients with garbage proposals. Any freelancing or independent contractor or any type of "gig" work which is not employment has business expenses.

Thanks Jeanne, there is a lot of truth in what you say. However, I still don't get how every job post can have 50+ proposals, which implies that non-skilled people just apply back and forth and don't care they basically just waste their connects. On another note, these spend-connects-fanatics are good for UW because they keep on buying connects and spending them in vain so, UW still makes.

The clients can receive 50+ garbage proposals from unskilled and scammer freelancers because there are millions? (Upwork isn't telling) of them. They apply because they are looking to take advantage of the platform. They apply because they have no marketable skills and think they can cheat the customer and get away with it. They apply because they don't read the rules, they don't care about rules, and they expect Upwork to save them from themselves. They apply for every job because they inflate their worth and believe the client will accept their incompetence. And sometimes, they are desperate for money and think if they come to a place like Upwork, they can make money.  It is the last category I have empathy for because the people have few to no options through no fault of their own. Unfortunately, Upwork is not going to provide that instant money for the vast majority of freelancers.

 

I'm sure I will receive hate messages for this, but if Upwork is in dire need of cash and that is why they turned to boosting, I would prefer they raise the cost of connects and do away with boosting.

The question is, did the client post a job with a set fee, say $200? Of those 50 proposals, how many exceeded the set price? How many were garbage proposals that didn't match the job? or failed to respond with the correct requirements? I'd bet the percentage is high. There will always be fake jobs, as you find them on job sites all the time. There is no way around that.

It is frustrating to spend time submitting proposals and not hear back. I find the boost system to be worthless as it only serves to sell more connects. If a proposal is boosted and then read by the client within hours, what's the point of more boosts, as those at the top should have already been reviewed by the client?

Why does it matter how many "exceed the set price"? A great many clients are happy to pay more than their posted budget for quality work. 

So now the conversation can move to, why isn't there a more legitimate system implemented to showcase work beyond just a profile. Where are built-in certification of understanding or "agents" if you will vouching for freelancers at different levels and different prices? Right? Or no?

The system of setting up a profile is "legitimate." If Upwork screened the freelancers as they did in the past, 80% would be gone simply from lack of a decent profile. If they got rid of the freelancers who violate the TOS, there would be much less garbage proposals to clog the system, and most of the scammers would go away.

 

If you are asking if there should be certifications or such for freelancers, then no. I do not expect anyone to run a fine-toothed comb through a profile. Basic business practices apply. Check the profile, the photo and have basic skills tests as well as a real Upwork test for readiness to use the platform.

The current system feels inadequate on nearly every level. It's barely functional. Screening needs to take place but not with any AI or systematic approach. If not certifications there need to be agents or a placement test so to speak to assist clients to find the right people for the right performance at the right price. Funneling people in on both ends needs to be looked at. Also, there needs to be a recaptcha or bot deterrent on every job post. That's all.

There are already certification and vetting programmes available on Upwork.

Yeah and it suck's no one uses that.

So, why would you want to add more, when the clients ignore the assistance?

You would like Upwork to hire a large team of high-end experts in each of several dozen fields to make these assessments? How much extra are you willing to pay for that very expensive staffing change?

Upwork has tools for the client to use in choosing the right freelancer(s). There is no need for a human to help a client. Aside from all the money that would cost, it is not going to change the fact that there are too many unskilled freelancers.

We are just witnessing one of the huge downsides of the internet. It was apparent very early on with social media and is now making itself very apparent on freelance and job sites. There is more access and resources than ever before, making it easier for anyone to assume virtually any identity. It puts these sites that were just setup to be an intermediary between parties in a hard place because now they have to invest large sums into cyber security and fraud.

fudgemasterultra
Community Member

Honestly, I think the less connects are floating arround the better it is for us freelancers. Less competition because you really do have to think that job is for you before you start applying because you only get so many. I'm glad when I apply to a job only 20-30 people at most apply.

I'm 100% willing to live in this reality but only if the client postings can be templated or at-least guided in some form for clarity, safety of client and freelancer, etc etc. Quality control is what I am seeing as my and many others biggest complaint.

It's up to the freelancer to build in the quality of the contract with milestones or tracked hours. I do not want Upwork adding to my fees to have someone help the client post a job. Many clients are here to have a one-off job and do not want to have any hassles.

 

No it's not, especially when the freelancer is aiming for honesty and more than half job posts are fake in one regard or another.

That's the nature of being in business for yourself. YOU assess the validity of opportunities. YOU decide whether the client is someone you want to work with. YOU structure the project in the way that best suits and protects you. 

Of course, it is the freelancers' responsibility. I don't need or want Upwork holding my hand for a fee while they "help" me. Freelancing is a business. If you don't understand how to establish a contract, you can learn through Upwork and the many great posts in the forum. It is entirely up to the freelancer how they are to be paid and if they are to be paid. If they don't want the responsibility, freelancing may not be for them.

 

Yep, there are a lot of scams. There are even more unqualified freelancers clogging the client's proposals.

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