We are not fortune-tellers

[#1]

We are not fortune-tellers, we are just freelancers 
But Upwork constantly wants to discover our telepathic skills.
Question: how can I work out if the client from States posts "Expert" project and supposes $5/h as expert salary, other pays $50/h without a problem. Checking the previous history in many cases doesn't work as well.
I understand that the client's  goal is to save money. $50/h is less than the current salary for this type of task in their country, but, moreover, they look for the cheapest ones, for $5/h, that is not decent salary worldwide. I undertstand, that life will teach him, serving a big plate of fresh sh-t. But in this very moment MY money and MY time I am spending are more relevant to me than the abstract lessons of unknown person.
Banality, but true. We all stay here to earn money and feed our children. Let's make this process easier and not force us just to waste our money instead. Let clients emphasize what rate they suppose corresponding to current skill level. Otherwise, nothing helps, inc. connects for money.

[#2]

A lot of times clients don't know what the going price is for a project. They expect freelance professionals to guide them. I usually bid what I want (despite the client's posted price) and have found many clients accept it. You should bid what you expect to be paid and let the client decide whether or not to pay it. It doesn't need to be a process that is overthought. If you are hesitant then bypass that client and go on to the next one. I don't think Upwork should get involved in client/freelancer negotiations. If a client is forced to put down a firm price, there is no room for negotiation. I prefer to negotiate my own rates with the client. Many have bigger budgets than we think. Some have projects with larger scopes and the project price would need to be changed anyway. If Upwork connect fees concern you, just be a little more discerning on your bids and pick the one(s) that best appeal to you regardless of the client price.

[#3]

I am not quite agree with you.

Let's analyze the situation on concrete example.
Here is the one of the recent project: **Edited for Community Guidelines**
Client from Australia pretends looking for EXPERT, and requires following knowledge:
Solidworks (surfacing) - (IMHO min 3 years of learning, 5 years for the professional level)
Adobe PS - (IMHO min 2 years of learning, 4 years for professional level)

Adobe Illustrator  - (IMHO 1 year of learning, 2 years min for professional level)

Moreover, they are just a tools, the required specialist needs to have basic education (at least 4-5 years).
Summary: person has to spend at least 10 years for such level of skills. Such person AUTOMATICALLY enters expert level and will not have rate less than $30-40/h. Otherwise it means that has not any respect toward his own person.
I place the bid in this project, $ 40/h. He ignores my bid and starts interviewing other person.
I am sure that's not because of skills (SW surfacing is my speciality, I have tons of projects done with exceptional feedback). It's because of the price. Moreover, he supposes it SO HIGH that even doesn't want to discuss it, making it a bit smaller. He even doesn't want to ask me why my service costs higher. Means he no needs any understanding of the current cost. But even when someone buys cheese in supermarket, he understands that price can't be unreasonable high, each high price has its own basis.
Conclusion: two persons meet each other. One pretends looking for expert (and currently looking for something other). Other, pretends being expert (in fact being something other). As result, real experts, as we are, s**k. Upworks doesn't provide any defense for us, like tips about avg. rates in our field. Even doesn't make people to articulate what they mean saying expert.
Situation is absurdic: instead of client's dancing of joy, because he occasionaly found the right professional, this professional has to spend his own money just because client doesn't understand the situation.

[#4]

Valery, I support everything you said. I am also very sure that nothing won't change. Freelancers and clients don't need free connects and additional rules. I do not care about connects price and wrote this in: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/It-is-not-about-connects-price-but-about-time-invested-s...

And I got several comments from other freelancers that I need to put more care in to what I am applying for. The truth is that for approx 500 jobs tried maybe 13 of them were accepted. We've won 10 of them and 3 went to other freelancers. That statistic is not near to 30% or so claiming, maybe because of our niche market. So where is the connection between you and my post? Bare with me, please.

Read my lips (virtual 🙂 ) : "Who rules the data, rules the world."

We all need more data to invest our time to best match with client and vice versa. Let's just imagine that we have "UpWork Analytic", where we can get all info, about jobs winning price, about success rate for every niche, about everything? SciFi? Maybe, but it works for Google and they are highly profitable. I am pretty sure that this will highly benefit freelancers, clients and UpWork. Just give me more info. But, again nothing will change. Why? Read my lips...

Till them I suggest you to buy magic crystal ball...

[#5]

Jure, I agree.
Let's confess that in our current situation BIDDING AS ACTION COMPLETELY LOST ITS MEANING. It is just time and money wasting.
Right clients use to find right contractors by themselves. We just need to wait.

I stopped buying connects. They were 30 connects Upwork gave me for free as compensation for problem it caused. Tried to spend them, and... result is completely the same as before. Notning changed in the heads of clients, they continue choosing the cheapest ones. In difference of past we even need to pay money for it.
And Upwork insists that everything is right.

[#6]

Dear Upwork!
You so carefully removed all names of countries I used, like I did something racist. Not at all!
In this case why don't you remove the name of my country from my profile?
It defenitely affects on client's decision while choosing the contractor. Let them judge by my skills and feedback, not by the economical situation in my country! 

[#7]

So, Valery, you would like Upwork to hire an expert in every single niche of every single field to determine how many years on average it will take to achieve expert level skills in each process, programming language (etc., etc., etc.) and then further invest in the development of an algorithm that will not only take into account each skill listed in the posting, but will assess whether the listed skill is required or just desired and whether the same level of expertise is required, and then will further assess whether those years could have been simultaneous or must be cumulative, and then bring in another expert to assign a base hourly rate to every one of those tens of thousands of combinations?

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not the least bit interested in paying 50% fees to protect myself or other freelancers from wasting ninety cents.

[#8]

Hi Valery,

I agree with you and it's one of the most annoying "features" I find in Upwork.

Upwork should provide clients with a way to post an orientative rate in hourly projects. Otherwise it's a waste of time for both freelancers - applying for jobs where they'll never be considered - and clients - having to deal with many proposals that are outside their budget.

I'm talking here from the point of view of clients/ freelancers but I understand however Upwork doesn't have any short-term incentive to do so now that they charge for connects: if a client posts a job for "Experts" but wants to hire at say 10 USD ph, any high-end freelancer's proposal there is free money for Upwork.

I think in the long-term it's detrimental to the platform but that's theirs to gauge... 

Kind regards,

Javier

[#9]

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Javier M wrote:

Upwork should provide clients with a way to post an orientative rate in hourly projects. Otherwise it's a waste of time for both freelancers - applying for jobs where they'll never be considered - and clients - having to deal with many proposals that are outside their budget.

A lot of us who are successful here routinely submit bids far outside the client's budget and are hired anyway--at our regular rates/prices.

[#10]

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Tiffany S wrote:
A lot of us who are successful here routinely submit bids far outside the client's budget and are hired anyway--at our regular rates/prices.

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I'm very happy for you but I still think it makes no sense to apply at 80 USD ph in a job where the client wants to pay 10 USD ph.

Why not giving that option to client/ freelancers?

[#11]

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Javier M wrote:

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Tiffany S wrote:
A lot of us who are successful here routinely submit bids far outside the client's budget and are hired anyway--at our regular rates/prices.

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I'm very happy for you but I still think it makes no sense to apply at 80 USD ph in a job where the client wants to pay 10 USD ph....

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Good. Glad to hear it. You do you.

[#12]

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Douglas Michael M wrote:
Good. Glad to hear it. You do you.

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Thanks for your valuable contribution.

[#13]

Tiffany, I am very happy for you.
Please don't forget, that in difference of you I have other difficulties as well. Sometimes client ignores my bids that even correspond his budget,**Edited for Community Guidelines** Have nothing against those beautiful countries, but they have not any modern industry, and, as result, CAD specialists.
The issue I am speaking in this post, is just one of issues I have.

[#14]

That's what I keep saying, that's not even LOGIC in a system that allows the client to set a filter for "expert" level freelancers ($$$) but with ridiculous budgets and hour rates that ANY "expert" professional would work for.

[#15]

I think this is definitely a problem but something that could be fixed by upwork. They have a ton of data on what an "expert" "Intermediate" and "entry lever "freelancers charge in each field they have job listings in, and what the clients have paid.  All they have to do is gather that information and when the client posts a job, present it. In other words, when I apply for a job looking for an Expert and get hired, the hourly rate or fixed price cost of the contract is a data point for Upwork. 

For example,  Upwork can give the client a range next to each level then select so the client can make a better decision.  For example, next to "Entry Level" it would say something like $10-15/hr, or $50 flat rate, and so on. It can also be based on the field of work. The information is out there, it is just about using it to inform the clients. 

[#16]

Hi Tatyana, Upwork already does that (at least they used to).

[#17]

Why not just remove this option completely, I've never understood the added value of this feature.