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Who Else Wonders What It Takes to Get C.S. to Actually Read the Tickets?

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
31 of 45

Janean,

 

He was suggesting offering services for the sole purpose of obtaining positive feedback and completing a job the freelancer otherwise wouldn't do. 

 

In other words, it's against Upwork ToS for users to request positive feedback while users can offer positive feedback.

~ Valeria
Upwork
jmlaidlaw
Community Guru
Janean L Member Since: Apr 6, 2016
32 of 45

@Valeria K wrote:

Janean,

 

He was suggesting offering services for the sole purpose of obtaining positive feedback and completing a job the freelancer otherwise wouldn't do. 

 

In other words, it's against Upwork ToS for users to request positive feedback while users can offer positive feedback.


I understand the distinction. Thank you for clarifying this.

 

I would respectfully suggest that UpWork reconsider its definition of "feedback manipulation," to include the concept of manipulation by client as well as by freelancer, insofar as the scope of job offers and negotiations is concerned -- that is, the part of a job that occurs prior to the job being completed, delivered, paid, and officially reviewed/commented upon.

jcullinan
Community Guru
Jess C Member Since: Feb 18, 2015
33 of 45

@Janean L wrote:

 

I would respectfully suggest that UpWork reconsider its definition of "feedback manipulation," to include the concept of manipulation by client as well as by freelancer, insofar as the scope of job offers and negotiations is concerned -- that is, the part of a job that occurs prior to the job being completed, delivered, paid, and officially reviewed/commented upon.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here - it's ok if clients offer next to no pay and promise 5 star feedback, but woe to the freelancer who bids within Upwork's already ridiculously low minimums but has the audacity to ask for 5 star feedback.

 

Because clients are king and freelancers are fodder. That's the theme around here lately!

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
34 of 45

Thanks for your suggestion, Janean,

 

Jess,

 

Terms of Use apply to both clients and freelancers. Neither freelancers nor clients are allowed to request positive feedback or engage "in any other conduct for the purpose of obtaining positive feedback from another user."

~ Valeria
Upwork
jcullinan
Community Guru
Jess C Member Since: Feb 18, 2015
35 of 45

@Valeria K wrote:

 

 

Terms of Use apply to both clients and freelancers. Neither freelancers nor clients are allowed to request positive feedback or engage "in any other conduct for the purpose of obtaining positive feedback from another user."


Go back and read the thread again, and the linked thread was well. In one instance, a client offered minimum payment and 5 star feedback, but that's not a violation. In the other, a freelancer was encouraged to work for minimum payment in order to get 5 star feedback, but that is a violation. Two sides of one coin.

 

The terms of service only pinpoint activities for the purpose of OBTAINING positive feedback. Clients are allowed to advertise positive feedback as part of the freelancer's compensation as long as they pay Upwork's ridiculously low minimums (work cheap and I'll give you 5 stars!), but freelancers aren't allowed to ask for that kind of deal (I'll work cheap if you give me 5 stars!).

 

You really can't see the inherent unfairness here?

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
36 of 45

Jess and Janean,

 

If, in their initial terms, posting or proposal, either client or freelancer offered to provide feedback once the contract is completed, it wouldn't be a violation. If either client or freelancer requested the other party to provide positive feedback, it would be a violation. In that way, both clients and freelancers are in the same position and are treated the same.

For example, if a freelancer says that they complete the job and give the client feedback, they wouldn't be violating Upwork ToS. 

~ Valeria
Upwork
tlsanders
Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
37 of 45

@Valeria K wrote:

Jess and Janean,

 

If, in their initial terms, posting or proposal, either client or freelancer offered to provide feedback once the contract is completed, it wouldn't be a violation. If either client or freelancer requested the other party to provide positive feedback, it would be a violation. In that way, both clients and freelancers are in the same position and are treated the same.

For example, if a freelancer says that they complete the job and give the client feedback, they wouldn't be violating Upwork ToS. 


 Yes, they are treated the same, but that's not really the issue, is it?


The issue is that the client (and perhaps the freelancer, if the phrasing was right) can agree to falsify feedback in exchange for lower rates.

 

How does that benefit anyone in the mix (including Upwork)? 

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
38 of 45

Hi Tiffany,

 

I was commenting on whether or not the team acted according to ToS in both of these cases as well as Jess' note that clients are treated different from freelancer. I'd be happy to share your feedback about the fairness and benefit of the ToS with the team.

 

Thank you.

~ Valeria
Upwork
jcullinan
Community Guru
Jess C Member Since: Feb 18, 2015
39 of 45

@Valeria K wrote:

Jess and Janean,

 

If, in their initial terms, posting or proposal, either client or freelancer offered to provide feedback once the contract is completed, it wouldn't be a violation. If either client or freelancer requested the other party to provide positive feedback, it would be a violation. In that way, both clients and freelancers are in the same position and are treated the same.

For example, if a freelancer says that they complete the job and give the client feedback, they wouldn't be violating Upwork ToS. 


This statement is ridiculous because you fail to take into account the element of who has the power. Clients have so much more power over freelancers when it comes to the decision to hire someone, and they are allowed to demand lower rates in return for artificially inflated feedback. A freelancer's rating of a client has very little impact on the client, because they're not subject to the same ridiculous Job Success Score matrix that freelancers have to put up with, and are screened against. Sure, we see a star rating on a client's post, and many freelancers who have been around for awhile will know to go to the bottom of the page and read through their history, but there are so many MORE freelancers desperate for work that even the worst of clients will still get plenty of proposals on their jobs. It's no positive selling point for freelancers to offer clients high feedback.

 

So the distinctions you have laid out regarding requesting feedback vs. offering it are MEANINGLESS. The clients have all the power in this regard, and can offer to manipulate the feedback system to their hearts' content without penalty and, apparently, with Upwork's blessing, so long as they pay at least $5 a milestone or $3 an hour.

 

There is no defending this, Valeria. You may have the letter of the ToS down, but the intent still shows that clients will ALWAYS have the upper hand.

jcullinan
Community Guru
Jess C Member Since: Feb 18, 2015
40 of 45

And what all of this really comes to is that this issue of feedback manipulation is a symptom of the larger problem on Upwork:

 

Freelancers are screened.

Clients are not.

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