Jul 16, 2023 08:30:42 PM Edited Jul 16, 2023 08:31:17 PM by Jeanne H
This is a sincere question to all freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed. The vast majority of people who get into trouble do not know the Terms of Service. I am looking for honest responses, not the story of being scammed or how unfair it is.
Why don't you know and follow the Terms of Service?
A) I didn't read anything before signing up
B) I can't understand it because it is too complicated
C) I can't understand it because of language barriers even in translations
D) I know about freelancing, so I ignored it
E) I'm here to make money
F) What's a Terms of Service?
Solved! Go to Solution.
Jul 19, 2023 09:16:17 PM by Andrea G
Hi all,
While we'll continue to allow criticism, posts that come without constructive feedback or are disparaging of other members won't be allowed. Forums, like the Community, are at their best when participants treat each other with respect and courtesy.
We appreciate your participation, so please consider this in your future replies.
Jul 19, 2023 01:19:39 AM by Anna T
Right. Which is why I sincerely suggested a twelve step program. You’ll never stop.
Jul 19, 2023 05:54:35 AM by Jonathan L
You posted in a public forum. Do you suggest that specific people may not reply to you?
Jul 20, 2023 04:15:51 AM by Tiffany S
You'd like me to join a 12-step program that could help me stop telling the truth and attempting to help people?
Actually, that sounded absurd when I started writing it, but it does seem right on brand for you.
Jul 20, 2023 02:13:11 PM by Anna T
Tiffany S wrote:You'd like me to join a 12-step program that could help me stop telling the truth and attempting to help people?
Actually, that sounded absurd when I started writing it, but it does seem right on brand for you.
Self awareness is hardly absurd, and I have no shame in sharing that I am a rather proud participant of such a fellowship and truly believe more people should partake in it. It’s quite liberating because the burden of carrying others lifts as you come to understand your role in it. Despite our differences, you still seem like a well educated, well articulated , self-assured person who is proud of where you are in life with an admirable desire to spread the wisdom. However, spreading the wisdom here and there vs. shoving it in someone’s face every chance you get are entirely different with the latter being the more “treacherous” of the two. Thank you for sharing your insights. You are correct. It is the right brand for me.
Jul 19, 2023 05:53:25 AM by Jonathan L
Anna T wrote:To this day, I have not read the TOS for the same reason. I did, however, recently refer to the section about treating other members respectfully as I noticed a couple of women being quite the condescending duo...
Anna T wrote:
Tiffany, I don’t recall ever offering advice here, but I truly believe you may find benefit from a twelve step program. There are various kinds available, they're free, and at the very least you will learn to recognize, and hopefully prevent, the urge to insert yourself where you don’t belong.
Something doesn't seem quite right. Like there is some high-level inconsistency... or something. 🤔
Jul 16, 2023 10:42:39 PM Edited Jul 18, 2023 01:47:06 PM by Débora F
Hello,
To those that didn't read the ToS (no matter why) or that read them some years ago (Upwork changed!), I'll try to help by posting some ideas that I acquired from my experience working 13 years at Upwork (previously Elance).
Maybe it could help, because the present situation not always follow the rules/ToS that were established years ago, especially due to the presence of scammers in the last 1-2 years:
I hope this could help to all of us.
Jul 17, 2023 01:22:56 AM Edited Jul 17, 2023 01:42:04 AM by Radia L
I haven't been scammed, but I usually don't read ToS'. The main reason is that I believe they are created for the good and protection of both parties, so I trust them, unless I'm entering some kind of a 'shady' service.
Aside from that, understanding legal language is also a bit difficult for me, even in my own native language (or I'm just lazy).
As for specific "rules of conduct", such as "no outside conversation unless a contract is in place," most of them are in my common sense and I look them up when I'm unsure. If, I got into some troubles because of this (if I do something not allowed because I didn't know), then I will not complain of course, but I might beg for a plea 😀.
As for dealing with scams, humans solve problems. If many people consistently break certain rules (a problem), alternative measures should be considered instead of merely "arresting" them all the time. These measures are available, but it seems like Upwork either can't or doesn't want to prioritize them.
Jul 18, 2023 08:41:37 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 09:51:23 AM by Christine A
Radia L wrote:I haven't been scammed, but I usually don't read ToS'. The main reason is that I believe they are created for the good and protection of both parties, so I trust them, unless I'm entering some kind of a 'shady' service.
Excellent post, and I bet this is the number one reason.
Radia L wrote:As for dealing with scams, humans solve problems. If many people consistently break certain rules (a problem), alternative measures should be considered instead of merely "arresting" them all the time. These measures are available, but it seems like Upwork either can't or doesn't want to prioritize them.
Also an excellent point. The two most important parts of the ToS are: 1. Don't communicate with clients outside of Upwork until a contract is in place, and 2. Don't exchange payments of any kind off of the platform. These could be at the top of every job post and at the top of every email notification, which some of Upwork's competitors are already doing. (Edited to add: I just accepted a new contract and noticed that there iS a warning about taking payments off of Upwork. The problem is, the majority of scammers don't give anyone an official Upwork contract - they just direct you to contact them on Telegram - so by the time this warning appears, it's already too late. It should appear as soon as you receive the first message from a client.)
Having said that, there are going to be people who will disregard the rules no matter what. Ironically, I don't think this is because they're "just not rule followers" but because if a potential client tells them to do something, they feel like they have to comply. How many posts have we seen that say, "I know we're not supposed to do this, but the client insisted"?
Jul 18, 2023 12:02:39 PM by Sophie A
Many users are more into writing than reading. They do not know what freelancing is all about, they keep the «employee-employer» mentality, they do not know how the relation «freelancer-client» works, and how it works when you put third-party rules in the mix. They think freelancing is earning money online doing whatever they are told, without any responsabilities, and putting blame on others when things do not go well. They write about it, when reading would have solved (almost) all of that.
Jul 18, 2023 10:56:32 PM by Tiffany S
Only by making a practice of not reading terms of service could you possibly have come to the conclusion that they are in any way intended to protect you.
Jul 17, 2023 03:00:19 AM Edited Jul 17, 2023 04:31:21 AM by Anthony W
Human nature most likely answer?
We see a lot of these characteristics on the platform side, too.
In my experience humans very often fear doing the right thing, in that they'll stand out from the group if they do so. Most humans like to be comfortably in the crowd, comfortably in line, going along with the norm or what is suggested.
Jul 17, 2023 09:13:16 PM by Samer B
1. they do not read the terms of service (lazy, eager, boring, who knows why)
2. they do not understand them
3. they are desperate for a job and take the risk
4. common sense is lacking
5. difficultly understanding the language (yes, you can be a great developer but lack some english skills
6. who knows what other reasons
Jul 17, 2023 10:00:00 PM by Jeanne H
2. they do not understand them
Due to lack of freelancer's education? If so, is the language burdensome? Personally, I find it is.
What would you say is the average reading level of freelancers. I realize we are making grand sweeps, but you have to start somewhere.
Depending on the source, the average reading level of the typical American means half of the population is under the 7th grade. From what I have seen, fifth is as high as I would go. It's not as if people are going to complain the Terms are not written with enough complex and confusing language. I met an attorney who insisted if I could write the specific legal terms in a simple way, no one would respect it without looking as if an attorney wrote it. It is a fact that much of the writing and the use of legal terms is completely unnecessary. However, is there a way to convince Upwork their Terms need revision?
5. Language- are there any translation programs that work well? This should not be an issue with the technology we have today. What is the root cause of language issues?
And, the second part of the question, how do we fix it?
Jul 19, 2023 06:01:00 AM by Jonathan L
Jeanne H wrote:
It's not as if people are going to complain the Terms are not written with enough complex and confusing language. I met an attorney who insisted if I could write the specific legal terms in a simple way, no one would respect it without looking as if an attorney wrote it. It is a fact that much of the writing and the use of legal terms is completely unnecessary.
This is also a horrendous problem with patents. First of all, the majority of the sections of the patent are meaningless, because only the Claims and Art sections have any importance. Secondly, the language expectations have hardly changed since the late 1700s, when the patent system was implemented. It is inefficient for the sake of high-brow. As an example: the frequent use of the word "proximal" instead of the equivalent phrase "next to".
Jul 17, 2023 10:51:38 PM by Alper D
Personality types! Some types tend to follow the rules so they are actively searching for the rules when they enter a new environment. For some, rules don't exist at all!
Environmental factors. Some people were born and raised in environments where the rules are not meant to be followed. You just have to jump in and live in an environment to explore and survive. These people have never seen an example of a "system" which revards people following the rules or punishes people not following the rules.
Jul 18, 2023 11:00:24 PM by Tiffany S
Interesting perspective. I don't see reading TOS as a way of preparing yourself to follow the rules so much as a defensive action to determine what you must do to protect yourself. And, many of the problems freelancers get into seem to stem from not having employed those protections.
Jul 18, 2023 07:07:51 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 07:12:58 AM by Amanda S
I'm pretty sure that I follow them and haven't been scammed, but:
G) I found the way they're organized to be chaotic, stopped reading them, then came to the forum to read about common blunders so that I don't make them
Jul 18, 2023 08:12:17 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 08:44:02 AM by Andrew L
The average person does not pore over the ToS of any site, let's get that one out of the way. Moreover, the average person isn't going to a jobs platform, and expecting 1 in 5 to as much as 1 in 3 jobs posted being a scam (depending on the category, yes I know that many categories have far less scams, but particularly lower-skilled categories suffer from scams disproportionately).
New freelancers have been scammed on this platform day-after-day, week-after-week, month-after-month, year-after-year. Nothing changes, including the shaming language directed toward new freelancers, while scammers get a free pass (who, of course, break the ToS over-and-over-and-over with impunity, and without even any shaming language directed at them).
There are concrete and very simple steps UW could take (a few lines of code) to prevent scams being advertised on this platform in the first place, and many of us here have explicitly stated what those steps are, and we get ignored, and sometimes receive condescending and out-right insulting remarks in doing so. There is no data hygeine on this platform. It's an unfiltered stream of user-generated content that allows complete nonsense to be published as "jobs". The only fault anyone can lay on a new freelancer is that they had higher expectations than anticipating up to 1 in 3 jobs actually being a scam on one of the better known jobs platforms. They have a higher expectation because all other major platforms DO practice basic data hygeine, and users rightly have the expectation that UW would practice similar basic security filtering of user-generated content. They don't do it, and somehow this becomes the fault of new freelancers.
Only up until about a week ago, UW allowed email addresses to be published in jobs descriptions. Prior to that change, as many as a third of jobs posted in writing-related jobs were soliciting for freelancers to apply by email. You can't make this up. Now I see they've taken the step to remove email addresses from jobs descriptions. This is such a basic thing to do that most web developers were doing as far back as the 1990s. If UW have a spare few minutes, they could then remove Telegram, WhatsApp, and other URLs from private messages (naked or obfuscated) - a job that many of us here have asked UW to do over the years. Preventing such "jobs" being posted prevents even the possibility of a scam, and it disincentivises scammers. Scammers use UW because it works for them. Blaming their victims has never prevented scams happening. If the opportunity to deploy a scam becomes that much more difficult, there will be a massive reduction in scams.
But where were we? UW's policy to tackle scams seems to use the motto "work harder, not smarter". So...let's keep manually flagging the jobs that could have been automatically prevented from being posted in the first place. Let's keep talking about scams on the forum. A pound of cure is better than an ounce of prevention! (Oh, shouldn't it be the other way around?).
I guess all I can do is keep shaming UW (where your shame SHOULD be directed) on this forum. I did get one victory - they did remove email addresses from jobs descriptions. That few lines of code they employed has saved a ton of wasted energy in flagging, complaining, returning connects. The content writing category looks a lot cleaner now. Praise where praise is due.
You'd surely agree that it would be better if there was a massive reduction in scams to fall for in the first place, right?
To end on a positive note, I think UW will be employing the aforementioned filtering sooner than later based on recent changes I've seen, and I'll be the first to praise UW for taking the right steps in preventing dangerous/misleading content from being published on this site.
Jul 18, 2023 03:52:19 PM by Christine A
This isn't just about scams; it's important to follow the terms of service so that you know how to use Upwork and don't end up with your account suspended or banned. If you choose not to read them, fine, as long as you're prepared to accept responsibility for that decision.
Andrew L wrote:Nothing changes, including the shaming language directed toward new freelancers, while scammers get a free pass (who, of course, break the ToS over-and-over-and-over with impunity, and without even any shaming language directed at them).
Okay, if it'll make you happy:
***
Message to all scammers: Stop scamming people! Shame on you! Read the ToS!
***
There - do you think that'll work?
Jul 19, 2023 03:11:55 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 03:12:39 AM by Andrew L
Maybe you'd like to address the other 98% of my post? The "free pass" I referred to (if you bothered to read the entirety of my post) was that scammers can continue to post scams with impunity. That's why there's so many of them. There are simple solutions to cutting them off at source, as I .... mentioned in my post. I am interested specifically in technical solutions that prevent scams in the first place - these are the best solutions to reducing scams, and reducing all the heat and light wasted on scams.
At least I come up with actual, specific solutions, of which one seemingly has already been implemented (as....mentioned in my post you seemingly overlooked). I look forward to your further complaining about my comments in this thread - very productive.
Jul 18, 2023 11:02:40 PM by Tiffany S
There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships.
One thing many freelancers don't seem to realize is that you're not an individual downloading a game on your phone--as an independent contractor you are running a business, and you can't possibly do that successfully without having any idea what you're agreeing to.
Jul 19, 2023 03:19:52 AM by Andrew L
Tiffany S wrote:There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships.
UW can enforce their own ToS by adding just a few lines of code on a jobs submission page, on a private message page. They choose not to do this. I wonder how seriously UW take their own ToS when they openly allow "clients" to break ToS when their own platform can prevent such breaches of ToS very simply.
Code is Law.
“Code is law” is a form of regulation whereby technology is used to enforce existing rules.
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