Why don't you follow the Terms of Service?

[#1]

This is a sincere question to all freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed. The vast majority of people who get into trouble do not know the Terms of Service. I am looking for honest responses, not the story of being scammed or how unfair it is.

Why don't you know and follow the Terms of Service?

A) I didn't read anything before signing up

B) I can't understand it because it is too complicated

C) I can't understand it because of language barriers even in translations

D) I know about freelancing, so I ignored it

E) I'm here to make money

F) What's a Terms of Service?

[#2]

This is listed under their "most important policies" :-
https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500007569061-Our-most-important-policies

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What sort of activities or behavior are off-limits?

Carrying out fraud or a scam.

Trying to circumvent Upwork by taking projects off the platform.

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They can use a RegEx to identify Telegram and other types of links - whether naked or obfuscated.  These would be breaches of their ToS, and code can catch such breaches before they are submitted.  Such implementation follows the common sense principle of "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure".  All other platforms I know practice this basic data hygeine. 

I would love to know your opinion on this: what do you make of the idea of UW allowing jobs to post email addresses in jobs descriptions, and then asking freelancers to apply for those jobs via email (circumvention)?  Imagine you are the ultimate decision maker of Upwork.  You have two choices:-

• choice 1: you can simply prevent jobs with email addresses being posted via web scripts, and the web scripts automatically warn the client they are likely breaching the ToS.  If they keep doing it, suspend them (automatically).  No job is ever posted. No freelancer will ever see these jobs.  No need to return connects, no need to manually flag anything
• choice 2: do nothing. Make your platform an open firehose of user-generated content.  You let "clients" post job descriptions with email addreses in the descriptions, and they solicit freelancers to apply by email (a clear and unequivocal breach of the ToS).  You then ask everybody to manually flag these jobs.   People complain about the jobs in the forums.  Your employees manually remove the jobs.  However, before they remove them, many people have already applied to these ToS-breaching "jobs". Your employees manually return the connects to applications. All that heat and light, all that energy and time.

Which option do you choose?

[#3]

Seems super irrelevant to the fact that freelancers who choose not to learn how Upwork works are constantly being scammed and/or losing their accounts (and then wailing about it here)

[#4]

The sentiment of your comment has been posted over and over by several members over several years on this forum, and scams have only increased in that time.  If a problem exists for multiple years, and a solution ("read the ToS!") is useless in fixing it, then you have to consider other solutions.  As some guy called Albert commented a while back in history: "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

On the positive side, the email address censoring UW have clearly deployed in the last week or so is a good start.  In a few lines of code, they've wiped out 30% of scams in writing categories. That's enforcing ToS by code, and working smarter, not harder.  I don't know if they've also updated private messaging as well, but I guess we will know if these forums go quiet about scams.  If they have updated private messaging, then it'll reduce scams even occurring by 95%+ because scammers can't even post "jobs" to lure freelancers off-platform.  It also identifies bad actors and UW can suspend these accounts . No genuine client is PMing freelancers with Telegram links pre-contract. 

[#5]

The point you seem to insist on missing is that the best and most effective solution would be for freelancers to stop jumping in with both feet with zero knowledge and running to scammers with open arms. Of course, none of us can control what other freelancers do. Ultimately, that means that is little or no problem for freelancers who run their businesses responsibly (thus, nothing to solve) and a big problem for freelancers who actively choose to drive on the interstate blindfolded. 

[#6]

The average person does not pore over the ToS of any site, let's get that one out of the way.

Tooo bad that you don't know how every person on the platform does business. The vast majority of quality, skilled freelancers I know did indeed read every word of the Terms, as did I. It's one thing to sign up for videos or music, it's quite another to be in business where money is being exchanged. I would never enter a contract without reading it for anything related to work. I am hardly alone. Most of us feel that is simply what you do when you are self-employed.

It's amusing that you believe the scams you mention are gone because you told Upwork to remove them. They will be back, it's cyclic thing. As a matter of fact, there are three in my feed today.

[#7]

I think that you could help much more, telling people how to avoid scammers (I'm not sure if the ToS are updated to the last year situation), than asking why didn't they read the ToS, or if they did... or, or, or.

[#8]

I think she's already doing that with more than 48k views of this link

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/To-all-freelancers-looking-for-help/m-p/1250726#M741226

[#9]

I think that nothing, and nobody, can ever help people who do not want to help themselves in the first place.

[#10]

We are talking about a work and its rules, not about psychology. And a work that let scammers enter and do what they want, without taking care of the freelancers. 

[#11]

I was hoping for real ideas, and not a rehash of other threads.

[#12]

I do think that the TOS are hard to read. I've had Upwork users who are quite articulate and intelligent ask me about the meaning of a certain provision or mention it and have it wrong. But, that's true of virtually any contract. 

[#13]

Upwork is not "a work." It's an online platform where SELF-EMPLOYED people (aka, businesses) can connect with other businesses and enter into contracts with them.

[#14]

At what point are freelancers accountable for anything as far as being scammed?

They don't read the rules, get scammed and come here and whine about what Upwork isn't doing for them. Why is this so difficult to understand? 

It's all there people. READ IT.

They can't protect people who are really determined to get scammed.

[#15]

In case you are unaware, I post constantly about scams, and feature Wes', excellent advice, that has yet to be duplicated. In addition to Upwork's messaging, it is more than sufficient to educate people. I see no reason to spam the board with my post that is already pinned to the top. I do use the link in the interest of time, because everything is contained there.

I do not understand why people would oppose learning more about those who may be honestly struggling because of deficits in the platform.

Do you expect me to post his message in every thread, constantly?

[#16]

It's essential to prioritize understanding and following the Terms of Service as a freelancer to avoid potential scams or issues. While various reasons can contribute to a lack of awareness, it's crucial to take responsibility and invest time in comprehending the terms for a secure freelancing experience. Stay informed, ask for clarification when needed, and prioritize protecting yourself and your work.

[#17]

The answer is that they don't have any business being a freelancer, most people are not qualified or got any skills to get any job and will not get any job here, they will only get scammed. 

It is not that they lack common sense, they just lack education and experience overall. 

[#18]

Maybe there should be a multiple choice test that everyone who comes here should have to pass before being allowed to bid on jobs, because they sure as anything aren't reading the TOS. If they did, and adherend to it, the scammers would literally disappear, because there would be nobody to scam.

Make a very simple, 4 question yes/no test. If you are unable to pass it, then stay off the platform until you understand how it works, and can pass it. Seriously.

1) Do you like working for free?

2) Do you think giving money to clients, to secure a job is a good idea, regardless of what financial reward they are promising you down the road?

3) Would you ever dream of doing freelance work for a brick-and-mortar business without a contract, detailing exactly what you'll be doing, the timeline, and at what cost?

4) Are you aware that any client who asks you to contact them directly is probably trying to scam you? See Question Number 1.

People need to slow down. This is isn't a hobby or a game. This is work.

[#19]

There was the Upwork 'readiness test' but they removed it! It does appear that Upwork are actually actively trying to encourage people getting scammed.

They make considerable money from the connects system (as they should) but an easy income stream for them is people applying for scams.

I think in order to capatilize on these posts Upwork know that opening the flood gates to anybody and everybody as a freelancer, they will get a limitless supply of people seeing these very lucrative looking jobs(scams) and spending  a considerable amount of money on them. The victims are usually taken off platform so Upwork doesnt have any legal responsibility and Upwork can sit back and reap the rewards for its ill gotten gains!

We all know that jobs are often left up for long periods when reported - some never get removed. It appears they remove the odd ones when people kick up a stink on the forum, but they are often ignored so they can let people apply en-masse!

For those saying its not the victims fault....

Is it the Scammers fault? - YES

is it Upworks fault? - YES

is it the victims fault? - YES

most of the people being accused of 'blaming the victim' are equally blaming all 3, its just its the victims that come here and talk about it, so of course you see people saying 'why did you go off platform' or 'did you read ToS?'

If upwork didnt turn the comments off on ALL of the so called 'trust and safety' teams announcement posts about scams then i know there would be as much blame and questions asked there, but clearly as Upwork are allowing this to earn revenue they dont want to talk to us about it directly so dont allow it by turning off the comments.

[#20]

Good response Johathan. I am dumbfounded by how people almost ask to be scammed. This is basic common sense, and goes way, way beyond getting scammed on jobs on this platform.

If you're going to do work on a project for someone, especially in the virtual space where you are unable to see whose on the other end of the internet connection, wouldn't you want some type of guarantee that they were going to pay you, or even have the resources to be able to pay you, once you did the work? This is why you use services like Upwork, who have escrov accounts.

The predatory and vile scammers, and they are predatory and vile, are looking for those people whose trust they can break by offering something that seems too good to be true, at least on the surface. 

They get freelancers to believe that they have fallen into this great assignment, and the client sounds credible, so why shouldn't they go with them?

Maybe it's a good idea for freelancers to be just a little bit cynical, to keep themselves safe. 

[#21]

Don't you think common sense would dictate learning how the process you'll earn money and get paid through works?

[#22]

You also need a skill or some kind of education... if you don't have it how would you get a job?

[#23]

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Tiffany S wrote:

Only by making a practice of not reading terms of service could you possibly have come to the conclusion that they are in any way intended to protect you.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. If a service has ToS that could harm me, I'm sure they are already known or categorized as the 'shady services' I mentioned. So in all these years I just "know" which service I should join (or even consider) or not.

I've been thinking, and I can confidently say that I have never read a ToS in its entirety in my entire life, except on a few occasions. (see below).

There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships. 

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I don't read the terms of my bank, Google, Phone, etc. I trust that anything that could potentially "harm" me would already be known, or "communicated" to me by "the public". An app for example, I don't install the 'shady' ones. I don't install and read the ToS which they might break anyway (like Upwork ignoring their own rules).

I do read terms in detail when I engage in specific business activities, which are very different from what is happening between me and Upwork.

If a lot of people don't read ToS but results in "something bad", it's a problem that humans should find a solution for. Instead of constantly arresting, scolding, or blaming the victims, and forgetting who the actual criminals are. Unless, there are more important things in the priority list.

[#24]

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Radia L wrote:

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If a lot of people don't read ToS but results in "something bad", it's a problem that humans should find a solution for. Instead of constantly arresting, scolding, or blaming the victims, and forgetting who the actual criminals are. Unless, there are more important things in the priority list.

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People have been uselessly blaming victims on this forum for years, and scams have only become more prevalent.  If simply complaining that people become victims through their own actions doesn't actually change anything, you'd think a different approach should be considered, right? I mean, do people actually want to do something about these scams, or only complain about how "dumb" the victims are?

This discussion shouldn't even be necessary if UW bothered to enforce their ToS via data hygeine on their submission forms. I'm arguing for basic content-filtering that every major platform already utilizes, so I'll take the gaslighting from other members here as if I'm the crazy one, but eventually UW will catch up with the rest of the internet, and scams will be greatly reduced, because they simply can't be deployed via content-filtering. 

What amuses me is that UW have apparently taken on board my suggestion I posted a week ago regarding email addresses.  If you read that thread, I made the observation that in particular categories, "clients" were inviting freelancers to apply by email for jobs, and posting email addresses in job descriptions to apply to.  This was happening to as many as 1 in 3 jobs on some niches.  A few days after I made that post, suddenly no job had email addresses in their jobs descriptions.  Either that's a coincidence, or they actually enforced their ToS (finally!) by adding a few lines of code.  I do not know if they've done that in private messaging, but if they do, then 95%+ of scams can't be deployed as they have been over the last few years on this platform.

[#25]

People have been uselessly blaming victims on this forum for years, and scams have only become more prevalent.

The scams are not more prevalent because victims are being blamed; rather, the scams persist because freelancers continue to become victims.

If simply complaining that people become victims through their own actions doesn't actually change anything, you'd think a different approach should be considered, right?

I don't consider Jeanne's post to be a complaint. In fact, she starts by saying: "This is a sincere question to all freelancers..."  I truly believe she wants to know, as do I, why people refuse to read and abide by the Terms of Service, and continue to fall victim to these scams.

I mean, do people actually want to do something about these scams, or only complain about how "dumb" the victims are?

By "people," do you mean freelancers like me, Tiffany, Martin, Jeanne and many others who don't get scammed? Yes, we often attempt to help freelancers before they become victims and point them to informative threads like the Top Red Flags for Scams from Wes, which Jeanne often links to. She does this because she realizes that freelancers will continue to be reckless. People like her and Wes thought it would be great to try to help them.

By "people," do you mean the freelancers who get scammed? Yes, they should read the Terms of Service and the link from Wes I provided above to understand the rules of engagement, and to better recognize scams.

Neither group of "people" can do anything about Upwork's reluctance to fix its problems; we can only fix ourselves.

Besides, it's not about victim-blaming; it is about victim-awareness. People like me only blame victims when said victims are made aware of potential scams, but choose to proceed blindly without any notion to protect themselves.

[#26]

Sorry, there are still ads there. And, for what it's worth, people have been complaining much longer than you have about the scams and offering filters, help, etc.

It's a coincidence. They come and go.

So, you are not interested in helping your fellow freelancers find ways to improve the TOS access and language. That's fine, but I still am, and will continue to do so.