Jul 16, 2023 01:30:42 PM Edited Jul 16, 2023 01:31:17 PM by Jeanne H
This is a sincere question to all freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed. The vast majority of people who get into trouble do not know the Terms of Service. I am looking for honest responses, not the story of being scammed or how unfair it is.
Why don't you know and follow the Terms of Service?
A) I didn't read anything before signing up
B) I can't understand it because it is too complicated
C) I can't understand it because of language barriers even in translations
D) I know about freelancing, so I ignored it
E) I'm here to make money
F) What's a Terms of Service?
Solved! Go to Solution.
Jul 19, 2023 02:16:17 PM by Andrea G
Hi all,
While we'll continue to allow criticism, posts that come without constructive feedback or are disparaging of other members won't be allowed. Forums, like the Community, are at their best when participants treat each other with respect and courtesy.
We appreciate your participation, so please consider this in your future replies.
Jul 18, 2023 11:01:00 PM by Jonathan L
Jeanne H wrote:
It's not as if people are going to complain the Terms are not written with enough complex and confusing language. I met an attorney who insisted if I could write the specific legal terms in a simple way, no one would respect it without looking as if an attorney wrote it. It is a fact that much of the writing and the use of legal terms is completely unnecessary.
This is also a horrendous problem with patents. First of all, the majority of the sections of the patent are meaningless, because only the Claims and Art sections have any importance. Secondly, the language expectations have hardly changed since the late 1700s, when the patent system was implemented. It is inefficient for the sake of high-brow. As an example: the frequent use of the word "proximal" instead of the equivalent phrase "next to".
Jul 17, 2023 03:51:38 PM by Alper D
Personality types! Some types tend to follow the rules so they are actively searching for the rules when they enter a new environment. For some, rules don't exist at all!
Environmental factors. Some people were born and raised in environments where the rules are not meant to be followed. You just have to jump in and live in an environment to explore and survive. These people have never seen an example of a "system" which revards people following the rules or punishes people not following the rules.
Jul 18, 2023 04:00:24 PM by Tiffany S
Interesting perspective. I don't see reading TOS as a way of preparing yourself to follow the rules so much as a defensive action to determine what you must do to protect yourself. And, many of the problems freelancers get into seem to stem from not having employed those protections.
Jul 18, 2023 12:07:51 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 12:12:58 AM by Amanda S
I'm pretty sure that I follow them and haven't been scammed, but:
G) I found the way they're organized to be chaotic, stopped reading them, then came to the forum to read about common blunders so that I don't make them
Jul 18, 2023 01:12:17 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 01:44:02 AM by Andrew L
The average person does not pore over the ToS of any site, let's get that one out of the way. Moreover, the average person isn't going to a jobs platform, and expecting 1 in 5 to as much as 1 in 3 jobs posted being a scam (depending on the category, yes I know that many categories have far less scams, but particularly lower-skilled categories suffer from scams disproportionately).
New freelancers have been scammed on this platform day-after-day, week-after-week, month-after-month, year-after-year. Nothing changes, including the shaming language directed toward new freelancers, while scammers get a free pass (who, of course, break the ToS over-and-over-and-over with impunity, and without even any shaming language directed at them).
There are concrete and very simple steps UW could take (a few lines of code) to prevent scams being advertised on this platform in the first place, and many of us here have explicitly stated what those steps are, and we get ignored, and sometimes receive condescending and out-right insulting remarks in doing so. There is no data hygeine on this platform. It's an unfiltered stream of user-generated content that allows complete nonsense to be published as "jobs". The only fault anyone can lay on a new freelancer is that they had higher expectations than anticipating up to 1 in 3 jobs actually being a scam on one of the better known jobs platforms. They have a higher expectation because all other major platforms DO practice basic data hygeine, and users rightly have the expectation that UW would practice similar basic security filtering of user-generated content. They don't do it, and somehow this becomes the fault of new freelancers.
Only up until about a week ago, UW allowed email addresses to be published in jobs descriptions. Prior to that change, as many as a third of jobs posted in writing-related jobs were soliciting for freelancers to apply by email. You can't make this up. Now I see they've taken the step to remove email addresses from jobs descriptions. This is such a basic thing to do that most web developers were doing as far back as the 1990s. If UW have a spare few minutes, they could then remove Telegram, WhatsApp, and other URLs from private messages (naked or obfuscated) - a job that many of us here have asked UW to do over the years. Preventing such "jobs" being posted prevents even the possibility of a scam, and it disincentivises scammers. Scammers use UW because it works for them. Blaming their victims has never prevented scams happening. If the opportunity to deploy a scam becomes that much more difficult, there will be a massive reduction in scams.
But where were we? UW's policy to tackle scams seems to use the motto "work harder, not smarter". So...let's keep manually flagging the jobs that could have been automatically prevented from being posted in the first place. Let's keep talking about scams on the forum. A pound of cure is better than an ounce of prevention! (Oh, shouldn't it be the other way around?).
I guess all I can do is keep shaming UW (where your shame SHOULD be directed) on this forum. I did get one victory - they did remove email addresses from jobs descriptions. That few lines of code they employed has saved a ton of wasted energy in flagging, complaining, returning connects. The content writing category looks a lot cleaner now. Praise where praise is due.
You'd surely agree that it would be better if there was a massive reduction in scams to fall for in the first place, right?
To end on a positive note, I think UW will be employing the aforementioned filtering sooner than later based on recent changes I've seen, and I'll be the first to praise UW for taking the right steps in preventing dangerous/misleading content from being published on this site.
Jul 18, 2023 08:52:19 AM by Christine A
This isn't just about scams; it's important to follow the terms of service so that you know how to use Upwork and don't end up with your account suspended or banned. If you choose not to read them, fine, as long as you're prepared to accept responsibility for that decision.
Andrew L wrote:Nothing changes, including the shaming language directed toward new freelancers, while scammers get a free pass (who, of course, break the ToS over-and-over-and-over with impunity, and without even any shaming language directed at them).
Okay, if it'll make you happy:
***
Message to all scammers: Stop scamming people! Shame on you! Read the ToS!
***
There - do you think that'll work?
Jul 18, 2023 08:11:55 PM Edited Jul 18, 2023 08:12:39 PM by Andrew L
Maybe you'd like to address the other 98% of my post? The "free pass" I referred to (if you bothered to read the entirety of my post) was that scammers can continue to post scams with impunity. That's why there's so many of them. There are simple solutions to cutting them off at source, as I .... mentioned in my post. I am interested specifically in technical solutions that prevent scams in the first place - these are the best solutions to reducing scams, and reducing all the heat and light wasted on scams.
At least I come up with actual, specific solutions, of which one seemingly has already been implemented (as....mentioned in my post you seemingly overlooked). I look forward to your further complaining about my comments in this thread - very productive.
Jul 18, 2023 04:02:40 PM by Tiffany S
There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships.
One thing many freelancers don't seem to realize is that you're not an individual downloading a game on your phone--as an independent contractor you are running a business, and you can't possibly do that successfully without having any idea what you're agreeing to.
Jul 18, 2023 08:19:52 PM by Andrew L
Tiffany S wrote:There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships.
UW can enforce their own ToS by adding just a few lines of code on a jobs submission page, on a private message page. They choose not to do this. I wonder how seriously UW take their own ToS when they openly allow "clients" to break ToS when their own platform can prevent such breaches of ToS very simply.
Code is Law.
โCode is lawโ is a form of regulation whereby technology is used to enforce existing rules.
Jul 19, 2023 08:12:01 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 09:27:18 AM by Andrew L
This is listed under their "most important policies" :-
https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500007569061-Our-most-important-policies
What sort of activities or behavior are off-limits?
Carrying out fraud or a scam.
Trying to circumvent Upwork by taking projects off the platform.
They can use a RegEx to identify Telegram and other types of links - whether naked or obfuscated. These would be breaches of their ToS, and code can catch such breaches before they are submitted. Such implementation follows the common sense principle of "an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure". All other platforms I know practice this basic data hygeine.
I would love to know your opinion on this: what do you make of the idea of UW allowing jobs to post email addresses in jobs descriptions, and then asking freelancers to apply for those jobs via email (circumvention)? Imagine you are the ultimate decision maker of Upwork. You have two choices:-
Which option do you choose?
Jul 19, 2023 02:01:17 PM by Tiffany S
Seems super irrelevant to the fact that freelancers who choose not to learn how Upwork works are constantly being scammed and/or losing their accounts (and then wailing about it here)
Jul 19, 2023 08:05:43 PM Edited Jul 19, 2023 08:09:56 PM by Andrew L
The sentiment of your comment has been posted over and over by several members over several years on this forum, and scams have only increased in that time. If a problem exists for multiple years, and a solution ("read the ToS!") is useless in fixing it, then you have to consider other solutions. As some guy called Albert commented a while back in history: "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".
On the positive side, the email address censoring UW have clearly deployed in the last week or so is a good start. In a few lines of code, they've wiped out 30% of scams in writing categories. That's enforcing ToS by code, and working smarter, not harder. I don't know if they've also updated private messaging as well, but I guess we will know if these forums go quiet about scams. If they have updated private messaging, then it'll reduce scams even occurring by 95%+ because scammers can't even post "jobs" to lure freelancers off-platform. It also identifies bad actors and UW can suspend these accounts . No genuine client is PMing freelancers with Telegram links pre-contract.
Jul 19, 2023 09:02:15 PM by Tiffany S
The point you seem to insist on missing is that the best and most effective solution would be for freelancers to stop jumping in with both feet with zero knowledge and running to scammers with open arms. Of course, none of us can control what other freelancers do. Ultimately, that means that is little or no problem for freelancers who run their businesses responsibly (thus, nothing to solve) and a big problem for freelancers who actively choose to drive on the interstate blindfolded.
Jul 19, 2023 10:39:48 AM by Jeanne H
The average person does not pore over the ToS of any site, let's get that one out of the way.
Tooo bad that you don't know how every person on the platform does business. The vast majority of quality, skilled freelancers I know did indeed read every word of the Terms, as did I. It's one thing to sign up for videos or music, it's quite another to be in business where money is being exchanged. I would never enter a contract without reading it for anything related to work. I am hardly alone. Most of us feel that is simply what you do when you are self-employed.
It's amusing that you believe the scams you mention are gone because you told Upwork to remove them. They will be back, it's cyclic thing. As a matter of fact, there are three in my feed today.
Jul 18, 2023 06:50:33 AM by Dรฉbora F
I think that you could help much more, telling people how to avoid scammers (I'm not sure if the ToS are updated to the last year situation), than asking why didn't they read the ToS, or if they did... or, or, or.
Jul 18, 2023 06:57:01 AM by Sophie A
I think she's already doing that with more than 48k views of this link
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/To-all-freelancers-looking-for-help/m-p/1250726#M741226
Jul 18, 2023 06:58:12 AM by Elisa B
I think that nothing, and nobody, can ever help people who do not want to help themselves in the first place.
Jul 18, 2023 08:20:28 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 08:20:52 AM by Dรฉbora F
We are talking about a work and its rules, not about psychology. And a work that let scammers enter and do what they want, without taking care of the freelancers.
Jul 18, 2023 09:13:34 AM by Jeanne H
I was hoping for real ideas, and not a rehash of other threads.
Jul 18, 2023 04:06:23 PM by Tiffany S
I do think that the TOS are hard to read. I've had Upwork users who are quite articulate and intelligent ask me about the meaning of a certain provision or mention it and have it wrong. But, that's true of virtually any contract.
Jul 18, 2023 04:05:01 PM by Tiffany S
Upwork is not "a work." It's an online platform where SELF-EMPLOYED people (aka, businesses) can connect with other businesses and enter into contracts with them.
Jul 19, 2023 04:15:41 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 04:21:36 AM by Martin S
At what point are freelancers accountable for anything as far as being scammed?
They don't read the rules, get scammed and come here and whine about what Upwork isn't doing for them. Why is this so difficult to understand?
It's all there people. READ IT.
They can't protect people who are really determined to get scammed.
Jul 18, 2023 09:11:40 AM Edited Jul 18, 2023 09:12:51 AM by Jeanne H
In case you are unaware, I post constantly about scams, and feature Wes', excellent advice, that has yet to be duplicated. In addition to Upwork's messaging, it is more than sufficient to educate people. I see no reason to spam the board with my post that is already pinned to the top. I do use the link in the interest of time, because everything is contained there.
I do not understand why people would oppose learning more about those who may be honestly struggling because of deficits in the platform.
Do you expect me to post his message in every thread, constantly?
Jul 18, 2023 10:55:26 AM by Malik Taj K
It's essential to prioritize understanding and following the Terms of Service as a freelancer to avoid potential scams or issues. While various reasons can contribute to a lack of awareness, it's crucial to take responsibility and invest time in comprehending the terms for a secure freelancing experience. Stay informed, ask for clarification when needed, and prioritize protecting yourself and your work.
Jul 18, 2023 11:05:03 AM by Miriam O
The answer is that they don't have any business being a freelancer, most people are not qualified or got any skills to get any job and will not get any job here, they will only get scammed.
It is not that they lack common sense, they just lack education and experience overall.
Jul 18, 2023 07:07:09 PM Edited Jul 19, 2023 04:44:36 AM by Martin S
Maybe there should be a multiple choice test that everyone who comes here should have to pass before being allowed to bid on jobs, because they sure as anything aren't reading the TOS. If they did, and adherend to it, the scammers would literally disappear, because there would be nobody to scam.
Make a very simple, 4 question yes/no test. If you are unable to pass it, then stay off the platform until you understand how it works, and can pass it. Seriously.
1) Do you like working for free?
2) Do you think giving money to clients, to secure a job is a good idea, regardless of what financial reward they are promising you down the road?
3) Would you ever dream of doing freelance work for a brick-and-mortar business without a contract, detailing exactly what you'll be doing, the timeline, and at what cost?
4) Are you aware that any client who asks you to contact them directly is probably trying to scam you? See Question Number 1.
People need to slow down. This is isn't a hobby or a game. This is work.
Jul 19, 2023 02:46:52 AM by Jonathan H
There was the Upwork 'readiness test' but they removed it! It does appear that Upwork are actually actively trying to encourage people getting scammed.
They make considerable money from the connects system (as they should) but an easy income stream for them is people applying for scams.
I think in order to capatilize on these posts Upwork know that opening the flood gates to anybody and everybody as a freelancer, they will get a limitless supply of people seeing these very lucrative looking jobs(scams) and spending a considerable amount of money on them. The victims are usually taken off platform so Upwork doesnt have any legal responsibility and Upwork can sit back and reap the rewards for its ill gotten gains!
We all know that jobs are often left up for long periods when reported - some never get removed. It appears they remove the odd ones when people kick up a stink on the forum, but they are often ignored so they can let people apply en-masse!
For those saying its not the victims fault....
Is it the Scammers fault? - YES
is it Upworks fault? - YES
is it the victims fault? - YES
most of the people being accused of 'blaming the victim' are equally blaming all 3, its just its the victims that come here and talk about it, so of course you see people saying 'why did you go off platform' or 'did you read ToS?'
If upwork didnt turn the comments off on ALL of the so called 'trust and safety' teams announcement posts about scams then i know there would be as much blame and questions asked there, but clearly as Upwork are allowing this to earn revenue they dont want to talk to us about it directly so dont allow it by turning off the comments.
Jul 19, 2023 07:12:03 PM by Martin S
Good response Johathan. I am dumbfounded by how people almost ask to be scammed. This is basic common sense, and goes way, way beyond getting scammed on jobs on this platform.
If you're going to do work on a project for someone, especially in the virtual space where you are unable to see whose on the other end of the internet connection, wouldn't you want some type of guarantee that they were going to pay you, or even have the resources to be able to pay you, once you did the work? This is why you use services like Upwork, who have escrov accounts.
The predatory and vile scammers, and they are predatory and vile, are looking for those people whose trust they can break by offering something that seems too good to be true, at least on the surface.
They get freelancers to believe that they have fallen into this great assignment, and the client sounds credible, so why shouldn't they go with them?
Maybe it's a good idea for freelancers to be just a little bit cynical, to keep themselves safe.
Jul 20, 2023 12:48:33 PM by Tiffany S
Don't you think common sense would dictate learning how the process you'll earn money and get paid through works?
Jul 26, 2023 08:30:38 AM by Miriam O
You also need a skill or some kind of education... if you don't have it how would you get a job?
Jul 19, 2023 01:27:17 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 01:34:48 AM by Radia L
Tiffany S wrote:Only by making a practice of not reading terms of service could you possibly have come to the conclusion that they are in any way intended to protect you.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. If a service has ToS that could harm me, I'm sure they are already known or categorized as the 'shady services' I mentioned. So in all these years I just "know" which service I should join (or even consider) or not.
I've been thinking, and I can confidently say that I have never read a ToS in its entirety in my entire life, except on a few occasions. (see below).
There's a HUGE difference between not "poring over" the TOS when you subscribe to a newspaper online and not bothering with them when a company is holding your money and has the power to impact your client relationships.
I don't read the terms of my bank, Google, Phone, etc. I trust that anything that could potentially "harm" me would already be known, or "communicated" to me by "the public". An app for example, I don't install the 'shady' ones. I don't install and read the ToS which they might break anyway (like Upwork ignoring their own rules).
I do read terms in detail when I engage in specific business activities, which are very different from what is happening between me and Upwork.
If a lot of people don't read ToS but results in "something bad", it's a problem that humans should find a solution for. Instead of constantly arresting, scolding, or blaming the victims, and forgetting who the actual criminals are. Unless, there are more important things in the priority list.
Jul 19, 2023 02:25:40 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 02:28:10 AM by Andrew L
Radia L wrote:
If a lot of people don't read ToS but results in "something bad", it's a problem that humans should find a solution for. Instead of constantly arresting, scolding, or blaming the victims, and forgetting who the actual criminals are. Unless, there are more important things in the priority list.
People have been uselessly blaming victims on this forum for years, and scams have only become more prevalent. If simply complaining that people become victims through their own actions doesn't actually change anything, you'd think a different approach should be considered, right? I mean, do people actually want to do something about these scams, or only complain about how "dumb" the victims are?
This discussion shouldn't even be necessary if UW bothered to enforce their ToS via data hygeine on their submission forms. I'm arguing for basic content-filtering that every major platform already utilizes, so I'll take the gaslighting from other members here as if I'm the crazy one, but eventually UW will catch up with the rest of the internet, and scams will be greatly reduced, because they simply can't be deployed via content-filtering.
What amuses me is that UW have apparently taken on board my suggestion I posted a week ago regarding email addresses. If you read that thread, I made the observation that in particular categories, "clients" were inviting freelancers to apply by email for jobs, and posting email addresses in job descriptions to apply to. This was happening to as many as 1 in 3 jobs on some niches. A few days after I made that post, suddenly no job had email addresses in their jobs descriptions. Either that's a coincidence, or they actually enforced their ToS (finally!) by adding a few lines of code. I do not know if they've done that in private messaging, but if they do, then 95%+ of scams can't be deployed as they have been over the last few years on this platform.
Jul 19, 2023 08:37:51 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 02:45:31 PM by Clark S
People have been uselessly blaming victims on this forum for years, and scams have only become more prevalent.
The scams are not more prevalent because victims are being blamed; rather, the scams persist because freelancers continue to become victims.
If simply complaining that people become victims through their own actions doesn't actually change anything, you'd think a different approach should be considered, right?
I don't consider Jeanne's post to be a complaint. In fact, she starts by saying: "This is a sincere question to all freelancers..." I truly believe she wants to know, as do I, why people refuse to read and abide by the Terms of Service, and continue to fall victim to these scams.
I mean, do people actually want to do something about these scams, or only complain about how "dumb" the victims are?
By "people," do you mean freelancers like me, Tiffany, Martin, Jeanne and many others who don't get scammed? Yes, we often attempt to help freelancers before they become victims and point them to informative threads like the Top Red Flags for Scams from Wes, which Jeanne often links to. She does this because she realizes that freelancers will continue to be reckless. People like her and Wes thought it would be great to try to help them.
By "people," do you mean the freelancers who get scammed? Yes, they should read the Terms of Service and the link from Wes I provided above to understand the rules of engagement, and to better recognize scams.
Neither group of "people" can do anything about Upwork's reluctance to fix its problems; we can only fix ourselves.
Besides, it's not about victim-blaming; it is about victim-awareness. People like me only blame victims when said victims are made aware of potential scams, but choose to proceed blindly without any notion to protect themselves.
Jul 19, 2023 10:29:21 AM by Jeanne H
Sorry, there are still ads there. And, for what it's worth, people have been complaining much longer than you have about the scams and offering filters, help, etc.
It's a coincidence. They come and go.
So, you are not interested in helping your fellow freelancers find ways to improve the TOS access and language. That's fine, but I still am, and will continue to do so.
Jul 19, 2023 10:37:09 AM Edited Jul 19, 2023 10:41:36 AM by William T C
How are you helping because Upwork has already solved this issue.
In all seriousness, other than the Community do you use Upwork.
Did you view the Job search yesterday and Upwork has already solved the issues?
Thanks Upwork!
Jul 19, 2023 10:59:29 AM by Jeanne H
No, Upwork has not resolved any of the issues I am addressing. What in the world are you talking about? Nothing is solved, and nothing has changed. What does this have to do with job feeds? I am still trying to find answers. Just because you feel you have the answers is irrelevant, because you are not answering anything. If you are golden, and see no problems, why does it bother you so very much that I am trying to find out a few things that might help others?
Upwork has solved nothing. If you don't see the other posts talking about real issues, you aren't reading them. I have no idea why you insist on telling me/us that everything is wonderful in Upwork land, and there are no issues.
I am not going to respond again because it is pointless. You go be an Upwork promoter where nothing is wrong, and all freelancers make millions here, if only they would follow your advice. Since you have zero interest in helping, why do you feel it necessary to continue to pretend everything is hunky- dory? And why does it bother you so very, very much that I am trying to find answers?
Jul 19, 2023 11:19:42 AM by William T C
Have you logged into the the Job part of the site where the changes were made yesterday that solve some of these issues?
I received an email yesterday about the Community, Academy, and other issues that are addressed in this thread.
The solutions I listed were implemented within 24 hours.
Thanks Upwork for being so responsive because I spend hours on the site daily and do notice the changes usually very quickly! Thanks to the Mods here and the software engineers!
Jeanne do you have ANY solutions? Please list them.
Jul 19, 2023 11:26:43 AM by Kim F
While it's lovely that you have some sort of special relationship with Upwork, that doesn't mean that trying to gather information before proposing something is a bad way of going about things.
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