Why don't you follow the Terms of Service?

[#1]

This is a sincere question to all freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed. The vast majority of people who get into trouble do not know the Terms of Service. I am looking for honest responses, not the story of being scammed or how unfair it is.

Why don't you know and follow the Terms of Service?

A) I didn't read anything before signing up

B) I can't understand it because it is too complicated

C) I can't understand it because of language barriers even in translations

D) I know about freelancing, so I ignored it

E) I'm here to make money

F) What's a Terms of Service?

[#2]

G) Because they are meaningless and serve no purpose to protect either UpWork or the users of the service.

This is false, and (once again) seems directly intended to harm less experienced freelancers. A substantial portion of the scams Upwork freelancers fall victim to would be completely avoided if they learned just a few basics, such as not to communicate outside the platform without a contract and not to work without a contract and escrow or verified payment for hourly. And, a lot of freak outs and unnecessary conflicts with clients could be avoided if freelancers had read how payment works for each type of contract. Freelancers who could have been covered by payment protection but weren't because they didn't jump through a hoop in the TOS (like memos) would also have been helped. Just a few of the most obvious examples.

[#3]

True to form, you skipped the majority of my comment. To attempt to clarify, the point I was making was not that the content of the ToS itself is worthless, but that the behaviour of UpWork has demonstrated that the ToS would not be upheld, as they have shown that they don't adhere to the terms themselves. Thus rendering the ToS worthless. Offering any sort of protection in a terms document, and then ignoring that terms document when it suits, gives zero confidence in that protection.

[#4]

Yes, I see your attempted obfuscation. 

I won't be responding to you again because I don't want to help build the foundation for your relentless, malicious attempts to undermine and destroy newer freelancers. 

[#5 · Accepted solution]

Hi all,

While we'll continue to allow criticism, posts that come without constructive feedback or are disparaging of other members won't be allowed. Forums, like the Community, are at their best when participants treat each other with respect and courtesy.

We appreciate your participation, so please consider this in your future replies.

[#6]

This website was never even supposed to be up on air yet ,my humble apologies, it has been taken off though, but I was unaware of this issue/complaint 

[#7]

Unfortunately all I've gotten from this thread is that one or two people can completely destroy what would have otherwise been a useful and informative discussion for new freelancers to read.

People like Jeanne, Tiffany, Clark, and others offer useful, nuanced advice and the usual suspects come along to dismiss it, or worse, personally insult them.

Why does disagreeing on a concept have to turn into condescending, personal attacks from a few of the members here?  You're supposed to be professionals, so please, conduct yourselves as such.

[#8]

I have a theory on this, which will probably be perceived as an attack by some but is my honest observation. Some people--and I've noticed this across a couple of decades of working with a wide variety of newer freelancers--are deeply invested in believing someone else is responsible for their success or failure. It may not even be conscious, but it seems to arise out of a fear. If what I and others are saying is true, they are responsible for their own businesses and succeed or fail on their own merits. 

This runs so deep in some that the will endlessly argue against any advice they are offered, as if they've lost sight of the actual goal and the goal is now being right about the deck being stacked against them. I feel bad for people who live that way, but worse for the newcomers they overwhelm with their gloom and doom.

[#9]

Well said!

[#10]

We-all-know-who successfully managed to hijack the discussion, scaring away people who could have given their honest opinion instead.

I noticed that the vast majority of people participating in this thread are from the US and UK, whereas it would have been nice to hear more opinions from non-native English speakers.

Being one of them, my reply to Jeanne's initial questions would be that the language barrier is a big obstacle for many freelancers. Even if you understand English to a good level, sometimes the way that ToS are written leaves you puzzled, to the point you have to read the same sentence 3 or 4 times. I cannot even imagine the troubles faced by those with limited knowledge of English. 

And NO: machine / AI translation services could make things even worse, because they could misunderstand the source text too.

Therefore it would not be a bad idea to have the ToS translated into other main languages too (knowing, of course, that Upwork could not care less about this and will never do it).

[#11]

I agree. The language barrier for non-native English speakers can be challenging. Toss in a bunch of legalese and I think it gets even harder.

It is a bit odd to me that a corporation with a platform hosting freelancers and clients from almost every corner of the globe does not translate some its most important documents (Terms of Service) into multiple languages. Then again, Upwork does a lot of "odd" things.

[#12]

Interesting case here:
I follow all Terms and Conditions. Then suddenly the client drifts into an area that is clearly against the rules of UpWork.

I report it. Guess what happens .... The contract will be on hold. And the payments for the freelancer will be reversed to the client.
Nice loophole here for clients. If you don't want to pay your freelancer just break the Terms of Service.
Any advice how a freelancer can protect himself from such scamming practices?

[#13]

So, this thread is dominated by my-prediction-vs-your-prediction debates, when it should be a collection of anecdotes by people who did not read or only partially read the ToS. In the 3 pages of comments, I've seen - at most - 4 answers from people who did not read the ToS (or read updates to ToS), about why they did not read the ToS.

[#14]

Yes, and I was hoping to review several reasons why some freelancers who were scammed or almost scammed, did not read or abide by the ToS.

The scary part is, for every 10 freelancers who post messages after getting scammed or those who post messages when they suspect they are about to be scammed, there are probably another 1,000 freelancers who are too ashamed or too embarrassed to admit to being scammed—especially if they lost a lot of money.