Why is Upwork no longer showing clients the f...

petra_r · ‎06-23-2020

Seems Upwork has once again changed how we are presented to clients.

Why is the hourly rate in a freelancer's work history no longer shown when clients look at it?

Is it still shown when we look at a profile with our freelancer accounts in the hope that we do not notice that this important marketing tool has been taken away?

VladimirG · ‎06-24-2020

Hi Petra,

I can confirm we are currently running a test with a certain subset of clients and the experience you noticed does appear to be related to the test. While I won't be able to provide any insight in order to avoid skewing test results, I can confirm this isn't a technical issue and hourly rates aren't displayed to select clients by design. Freelancer's total earnings are still displayed as part of the test.

~ Vladimir

moonraker · ‎06-24-2020

So then you can have people with a history of working for $10/hr applying for jobs alongside people with a history of working for $35/hr - and the client won't be able to tell who has a history of working at a higher level?

Do I have that right? If so, how is that beneficial for the freelancer or the client?

anima9 · ‎06-24-2020

If I were to look at it from UpWork's perspective, they must be thinking that seeing the hourly rate can be a deterrent for some clients, regardless of whether they're high or low.

I can see what's wrong with this, but I also think so long as UpWork keeps the "hours worked" as the images suggest, it can result to more clients inviting a freelancer for an interview.

Then again, this also ruins the marketing for freelancers who have always been invited by clients willing to spend for quality work.

Double edged sword, but perhaps UpWork shouldn't touch things that work. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" should be followed.

Or is this a sign that fewer clients want to hire on the platform, and UpWork is now trying to enhance client engagement by removing readily available information?

firescue17 · ‎06-24-2020

Robert James R wrote:
Double edged sword, but perhaps UpWork shouldn't touch things that work. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" should be followed.

CNN wrote:
Upwork, which is a recruiting company ...

Upwork doesn't care about Freelancers anymore. They're now a self-described temp agency. Keep an aye out for your VV2s

moonraker · ‎06-24-2020

I've never thought they do 'care' about us, and I've always been comfortable with that.

But for them to make changes that favor some freelancers over others is, just... And when those that lose out are likely to be the higher earners that are there on merit and hard work over many years is, well...

I find myself lost for words. I 'm not usually bothered with them fiddling about with stuff. But this one is something else.

I would LOVE to know the reasoning behind this one. It appears to me as though it is an attempt to level the playing field, and **** everybody that has rightly earned an advantage over others.

petra_r · ‎06-24-2020

Robert James R wrote:
If I were to look at it from UpWork's perspective, they must be thinking that seeing the hourly rate can be a deterrent for some clients, regardless of whether they're high or low.

You're missing the point. Clients can see the hourly rate of the profile. They can see the hourly rate the freelancer applied with. They just can't see the hourly rate paid previously.

Robert James R wrote:
I also think so long as UpWork keeps the "hours worked" as the images suggest, it can result to more clients inviting a freelancer for an interview.

HOW? Clients see the profile rate. Clients see the rate the freelancer applied with.

All this did was remove the client's ability to see that the freelancer has a history of clients who happily paid that rate previously.

wlyonsatl · ‎06-24-2020

Petra,

Are you incensed about this because you think it will result in clients expecting to pay lower rates to freelancers because they cannot see the freelancers average pay rate on all previous contracts?

petra_r · ‎06-24-2020

Will L wrote:
Are you incensed about this because you think it will result in clients expecting to pay lower rates to freelancers because they cannot see the freelancers average pay rate on all previous contracts?

Clients have never been able to see "average pay rates" but they have been able to see what the freelancer has been paid recently on hourly contracts.

When clients are looking at a range of freelancers at different price-points, and they like one that is priced somewhat higher than others, they look at the profile in more detail.

When they then see successfully completed contracts at that rate, it reassures them that they are not being taken for a ride or overcharged. So for freelancers with rates that are on the higher side for their category, demonstrating successful outcomes with happy clients helps to sell that hourly rate.

There is also the flipside: clients should be able to discern dreamers and jokers (who have a high profile rate, but actually work at a fraction of that) so they don't get taken for a ride.

I wonder if this will become something else that will be available to clients only under a paid plan...

Furthermore, I also do not appreciate being used as a human lab-rat in whatever harebrained experiments are being run. Those experiments affect our earnings and our livelihood. I also don't appreciate being misled (when I click on "View how others see my profile" I do NOT see how clients see my profile) and I certainly do not appreciate being told that "it is no issue!"

If something is an issue for me, then for me, it's an issue.

tlsanders · ‎07-06-2020

Petra R wrote:
HOW? Clients see the profile rate. Clients see the rate the freelancer applied with.
All this did was remove the client's ability to see that the freelancer has a history of clients who happily paid that rate previously.

Fortunately, if it remains as it is in this image, those of us who can math will still be able to quickly assess past rates. But, most clients probably won't bother, or won't think of it.

firescue17 · ‎07-06-2020

Tiffany S wrote:
Fortunately, if it remains as it is in this image, those of us who can math will still be able to quickly assess past rates. But, most clients probably won't bother, or won't think of it.

It's kind of a moot point. There's no way for clients to contact us to ask for further information about the historical development and growth of our business and skillset

petra_r · ‎07-06-2020

I am still waiting to hear why a test that had supposedly already been stopped on the second of July, is still running on the 7th..

I can only think of two possible answers, and like neither.

Advance notice: Any mention of "confusion caused" (I'm not confused, I'm angry) or reassurance that something that is an issue for me isn't an issue, may be met with something requiring ***editing for community guidelines***.

tlsanders · ‎07-06-2020

Steven E. L wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
Fortunately, if it remains as it is in this image, those of us who can math will still be able to quickly assess past rates. But, most clients probably won't bother, or won't think of it.
It's kind of a moot point. There's no way for clients to contact us to ask for further information about the historical development and growth of our business and skillset

I'm not sure what you mean. Clients wouldn't need to contact us to divide the total amount paid on a job by the number of hours worked (both of which are currently visible). But, if they wanted to, I can't see why they couldn't. I just got a direct message from a client within the past couple of days.

tlsanders · ‎07-06-2020

Jamie F wrote:
So then you can have people with a history of working for $10/hr applying for jobs alongside people with a history of working for $35/hr - and the client won't be able to tell who has a history of working at a higher level?

Do I have that right? If so, how is that beneficial for the freelancer or the client?

I'm guessing it's a way to allow freelancers to scam their way into higher rates. Currently, a lot of freelancers have an hourly rate on their profiles that is a complete lie. They'll have $75/hour listed, and when you scroll down, their highest paying job was at $18/hour and they're frequently working for $10-12.

When a client sees that, he/she obviously isn't going to jump to pay the freelancer the totally fake and apparently completely unwarranted profile rate.

But, if clients didn't notice that, they might be willing to pay more than the freelancer had earned previously...and then Upwork would make more.

I mostly freelance through Upwork, but I also do some hiring, and when I see a freelancer whose profile rate is multiples of his/her highest paying job, that's an automatic rule out for me.

feed_my_eyes · ‎07-06-2020

Tiffany S wrote:
I mostly freelance through Upwork, but I also do some hiring, and when I see a freelancer whose profile rate is multiples of his/her highest paying job, that's an automatic rule out for me.

That's the way it should be. But Upwork wants to HELP its shadier freelancers to get hired, instead of encouraging them to stop being shady in the first place.

tlsanders · ‎07-06-2020

Christine A wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
I mostly freelance through Upwork, but I also do some hiring, and when I see a freelancer whose profile rate is multiples of his/her highest paying job, that's an automatic rule out for me.
That's the way it should be. But Upwork wants to HELP its shadier freelancers to get hired, instead of encouraging them to stop being shady in the first place.

And hurt those of us who have established solid rates, apparently. I guess now I know why I had a prospective client question my rates today for the first time in as long as I can remember.

feed_my_eyes · ‎07-06-2020

Tiffany S wrote:
Christine A wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
I mostly freelance through Upwork, but I also do some hiring, and when I see a freelancer whose profile rate is multiples of his/her highest paying job, that's an automatic rule out for me.
That's the way it should be. But Upwork wants to HELP its shadier freelancers to get hired, instead of encouraging them to stop being shady in the first place.

And hurt those of us who have established solid rates, apparently. I guess now I know why I had a prospective client question my rates today for the first time in as long as I can remember.

Yes, exactly. I can't remember the last time a prospective client questioned my rates, either. I want people to be able to look at my previous projects and see that I always, ALWAYS charge my profile rate, it's not open to negotiation, and that my past clients have considered my work to be good value for the money.

petra_r · ‎06-24-2020

Vladimir G wrote:
Hi Petra,

I can confirm we are currently running a test with a certain subset of clients and the experience you noticed does appear to be related to the test.

Vladimir, I am not a guinea-pig and I am not a lab-rat.

Vladimir G wrote:
I can confirm this isn't an issue and hourly rates aren't displayed to select clients by design.

It may not be an issue for you, but it certainly *IS* an issue for me. I have a relatively high hourly rate and I know for an absolute fact that seeing successfully completed contracts at my rate helps clients feel more comfortable with my rate.

So I would respectfully, politely, but most strongly disagree with your statement that "it isn't an issue" because it is an issue for me.

Vladimir G wrote:
Freelancer's total earnings are still displayed as part of the test.

So? Am I supposed to tell clients to get out their calculator?

I really am very upset and frankly furious that Upwork chooses to run experiments that affect my chances of being hired. In general, and ESPECIALLY at a time like this where everyone is struggling.

I really am incensed.

(I have just rewritten this 3 times to tone down just how strongly I feel about this. I genuinely hope you appreciate the effort) Edited to add: And a fourth time to fix typos.

VladimirG · ‎07-07-2020

Hi Petra,

Could you please check again? The test was turned off and hourly rates should be showing for everybody. Also, I'd like to clarify that in my original post I didn't mean to imply that this is not an issue for you. I was stating that this is not a technical issue, i.e. a bug, but a test. I'm sorry I wasn't clear and if my response caused frustration.

~ Vladimir

petra_r · ‎07-07-2020

Vladimir G wrote:
Could you please check again? The test was turned off and hourly rates should be showing for everybody.

Hi Vlad,

Thank you! They do now. They did not first thing yesterday and I triple checked with others.

Vladimir G wrote:
Also, I'd like to clarify that in my original post I didn't mean to imply that this is not an issue for you. I was stating that this is not a technical issue, i.e. a bug, but a test.

I never said anything about a technical problem, it was clear from the start that it was as deliberate as it was harmful.

Vladimir G wrote:
I'm sorry I wasn't clear and if my response caused frustration.

It would have saved a lot of that frustration if you had clarified that right away rather than letting it "become a thing" for a full 2 weeks...

Apology accepted.

m_terrazas · ‎07-09-2020

I hadn't realized until I saw the thread.
Vladimir, if this test is over, why do I see this on my profile?

VladimirG · ‎07-09-2020

Hi Maria,

I'll follow up with our team to check why the rate isn't displayed for those contracts and follow up with an update.

~ Vladimir

petra_r · ‎07-09-2020

Maria T wrote:
I hadn't realized until I saw the thread.
Vladimir, if this test is over, why do I see this on my profile?

The client has successfully requested to keep their rates paid hidden. Enterprise and some stragegic clients can request that their paid rates do not show.

If you go to the first job you did with them, you'll see that none of their payments show. That's by client, not the same as the test that was done, where we thought our profiles looked one way, and what was shown to the clients in the test was something altogether different.

None of that client's payment shows. You'll see that with many of the biggest clients.

VladimirG · ‎07-09-2020

Hi Maria,

As promised, following up to confirm that rate isn't displayed for some of your Hourly contracts by design, due to the specific settings clients from those contracts have access to.

~ Vladimir

m_terrazas · ‎07-09-2020

Vladimir G wrote:
Hi Maria,

As promised, following up to confirm that rate isn't displayed for some of your Hourly contracts by design, due to the specific settings clients from those contracts have access to.

Thanks Vladimir (and Petra).
Well, until recently that data was displayed, so I thought it would be the same problem
If it's up to the customer, that's fine.

firescue17 · ‎06-24-2020

Vladimir G wrote:
I can confirm we are currently running a test with a certain subset of clients and the experience you noticed does appear to be related to the test. While I won't be able to provide any insight in order to avoid skewing test results, I can confirm this isn't an issue ...

Define Beta Test: a field test of the beta version of a product (such as software) especially by testers outside the company developing it that is conducted prior to commercial release

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

researchediting · ‎06-24-2020

Steven E. L wrote:
Vladimir G wrote:
I can confirm we are currently running a test with a certain subset of clients and the experience you noticed does appear to be related to the test. While I won't be able to provide any insight in order to avoid skewing test results, I can confirm this isn't an issue ...
Define Beta Test: a field test of the beta version of a product (such as software) especially by testers outside the company developing it that is conducted prior to commercial release

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

That Upwork can't distinguish between beta and A/B testing is sadly overshadowed by their inability to distinguish between test and production systems.

martina_plaschka · ‎06-24-2020

This is missing the point what a strong marketing tool prior rates are. A client willing to pay higher rates can see at in a split-second that the freelancer has worked for, and been paid, a higher rate. He can see if the freelancer is working for 20, or 40, or 100 per hour in a given month and pass judgement on that behaviour. He can see if the rate is consistent or varies dramatically. He can see if the freelancer works for lower rates.

This information is crucial in giving the client confidence in the freelancer and his abilities. You want comfortable clients, as confused or uncomfortable clients will take their business elsewhere, or not hire.

Personally, it's not as important to me as to other freelancers as I usually do fixed price jobs, but I understand we need it back. Plus, everything Petra said.

firescue17 · ‎06-24-2020

Martina P wrote:
This is missing the point what a strong marketing tool prior rates are ...

Prior rates are no longer relevant to Upwork's business model. As evidenced by recent C-Level decisions and external press releases, Upwork is now focusing on "recruiting;" they're going to be the virtual temp agency of the post-pandemic 22nd Century.

As such, the benefit to their new BFF Enterprise clients is to drive the average rate down to dumpster hole rates. At which point the rest of us are granted the opportunity to get on board, or take a hike.

martina_plaschka · ‎06-24-2020

Steven E. L wrote:
Martina P wrote:
This is missing the point what a strong marketing tool prior rates are ...
Prior rates are no longer relevant to Upwork's business model. As evidenced by recent C-Level decisions and external press releases, Upwork is now focusing on "recruiting;" they're going to be the virtual temp agency of the post-pandemic 22nd Century.

As such, the benefit to their new BFF Enterprise clients is to drive the average rate down to dumpster hole rates. At which point the rest of us are granted the opportunity to get on board, or take a hike.

Good points made.

kfarnell · ‎06-24-2020

Vladimir G wrote:
I can confirm this isn't an issue and hourly rates aren't displayed to select clients by design.

There really is no need for that level of rudeness. If someone says they have an issue, they have an issue. There is no approved issue list that they have to stick to.

iaabraham · ‎06-24-2020

The worst part about tests like these is that we're never informed of them -- users just happen to stumble across them. The rest of us are left bewildered as to why our freelancing has been affected in some way or the other. And then Upwork makes these "tests" permanent.

This one particularly annoys me as someone who's continually questioned about my rate due to my field, location, etc. One of the few things that potential clients are willing to count on is that other clients have paid my rate and left me good reviews for contracts at that rate ... so maybe in fact my services are worth it.

Now what am I supposed to do? Send them a screenshot of my contract rates in the hopes that will convince them? Even if they haven't already discounted my profile by then, I'm sure Upwork will remove the visibility of these rates from the freelancer's end too eventually.

moonraker · ‎06-24-2020

Ah well.

It looks as though I should start ramping up my efforts on my side-gigs.

feed_my_eyes · ‎06-24-2020

I bet that this is being done because some freelancers have rates that are all over the map. If a client says that their budget is $5 an hour, the freelancer charges $5; if a client says their budget is $50 an hour, then they charge $50 (for the exact same type of work). There are also freelancers who say that their rate is $20, but if you look at their past projects, they've never charged more than $5. It's all about charging whatever they can get away with, credibility be damned. If you ask me, this "test" is all about trying to make unprofessional freelancers look less unprofessional; it's not something that the rest of us need or want. Freelancers already have the ability to hide their past rates by paying for a "plus" membership, so if they make this thing permanent, there will be even less reason to pay for that useless programme.

I don't see why Upwork wants to cover up for these freelancers, instead of incentivising them to get their act together. One reason why I always keep my hourly rate steady is that I want clients to know that I'm charging everyone fairly and consistently, and not wildly going up and down on a whim or because I don't know what I'm doing.

Oh, and I already know that some of you will respond to my post by saying that you charge different rates for different types of work. That's not what I'm talking about here, so save your breath.

iaabraham · ‎06-24-2020

Christine A wrote:
I bet that this is being done because some freelancers have rates that are all over the map. If a client says that their budget is $5 an hour, the freelancer charges $5; if a client says their budget is $50 an hour, then they charge $50 (for the exact same type of work). There are also freelancers who say that their rate is $20, but if you look at their past projects, they've never charged more than $5. It's all about charging whatever they can get away with, credibility be damned. If you ask me, this "test" is all about trying to make unprofessional freelancers look less unprofessional; it's not something that the rest of us need or want. Freelancers already have the ability to hide their past rates by paying for a "plus" membership, so if they make this thing permanent, there will be even less reason to pay for that useless programme.

I don't see why Upwork wants to cover up for these freelancers, instead of incentivising them to get their act together. One reason why I always keep my hourly rate steady is that I want clients to know that I'm charging everyone fairly and consistently, and not wildly going up and down on a whim or because I don't know what I'm doing.

Oh, and I already know that some of you will respond to my post by saying that you charge different rates for different types of work. That's not what I'm talking about here, so save your breath.

I wasn't going to say that at all, but honestly the reasoning you proposed sounds absurd to me. What is it any of Upwork's business whether freelancers charge different rates? (Or the client's business, for that matter.)

And even if that were the case, does it happen that often for Upwork to want to hide all our individual contract rates? I for one have rarely seen wildely erratic hourly rates when I've viewed others' profiles -- as a client or fellow freelancer.

Also, I don't know if Petra checked this, but that reasoning wouldn't apply if the contract amounts for fixed-price jobs were hidden as well. This "test" makes no sense at all, and I'm interetsed to see what justification Upwork comes up with for this. ("Our research has shown blah blah blah...")

petra_r · ‎06-24-2020

Christine A wrote:
If you ask me, this "test" is all about trying to make unprofessional freelancers look less unprofessional.

... which is, of course, the opposite of what should be encouraged.

Christine A wrote:
Oh, and I already know that some of you will respond to my post by saying that you charge different rates for different types of work. That's not what I'm talking about here, so save your breath.

I wouldn't, because an hour of my time is an hour of my time. It doesn't get worth any less if I work on something else, but I get your point. I have some oooold clients who I've grandfathered into their old rate, but for new clients my rate is what it is.

I am still stunned that I was told that it isn't an issue. It *IS* an issue to me. It really is and if I was livid before being told that it's not an issue, imagine how I feel now.

It's one thing to secretly remove/hide a factor that serves as an incentive for a client to hire me at my rate, and to be so sneaky about doing so (when I click on "View my profile as others see it" I am shown the rate in my history, which means what I THINK "others see" isnt what others see at all.) -but quite another to then tell me that it's not an issue. That takes it to a whole new level.

I hardly ever complain about anything. I spend a good deal of my spare time defending and explaining why and how Upwork does what Upwork does.

On the very rare occasion that I ask about something, I do not expect to be told whether I have an issue with something. If I say it's an issue for me, it's an issue for me and that's all there is to it.

mwiggenhorn · ‎06-24-2020

All those profiles that say $250/hour but never got more than $100/hour are now patting themselves on the back.

smartglobe · ‎06-24-2020

Sure! You are very correct. Isn't it an irony that this kind of new stuff from Upwork will benefit those who are not real about the hourly rates on their profiles?

feed_my_eyes · ‎06-24-2020

Petra R wrote:
I am still stunned that I was told that it isn't an issue. It's an issue to me. It really is and if I was livid before being told that it's not an issue, imagine how I feel now.

I have no trouble imagining.

Here's an idea. Instead of the stupid "plus" membership - which provides no benefits at all - why not introduce a special "opt out" membership, so that experienced freelancers can pay an extra fee to run their business as they see fit, and not participate in any more idiotic tests? I would HAPPILY pay an extra monthly fee if it meant that I don't have to log into my account each morning and wonder, "What fresh hell does Upwork have in store for me today?"

petra_r · ‎06-24-2020

Christine A wrote:
Petra R wrote:
I am still stunned that I was told that it isn't an issue. It's an issue to me. It really is and if I was livid before being told that it's not an issue, imagine how I feel now.
I have no trouble imagining.

Here's an idea. Instead of the stupid "plus" membership - which provides no benefits at all - why not introduce a special "opt out" membership, so that experienced freelancers can pay an extra fee to run their business as they see fit, and not participate in any more idiotic tests?

The test is on the client side. It seems some clients can see our rates, some can't.

So opting out of being guinea-pigs or lab-rats for whatever new harebrained experiment someone for reasons unknown to anybody came up with wouldn't help.

Why is Upwork no longer showing clients the freelancer's previous hourly rate paid in work history?