renata101
Member

Why should I pay to keep my earnings private?

I don't want my earnings publicized on this platform.

 

And what's more, I think it's completely indecent that UpWork is demanding that I pay premium rates for something freelancers should have a basic right to. I'm already paying, thanks. Privacy is not a privlege that UpWork should charge for. Something is quite wrong with this way of thinking. I also think I should be free to choose how I wish to market myself. I can't see these metrics being useful or helpful and I don't want to be forced to have them on my profile.


These are two examples (not mine). I don't want this. 

Screen Shot 2017-10-07 at 4.37.07 AM.png

Screen Shot 2017-10-07 at 4.02.13 AM.png 

53 REPLIES 53
g_vasilevski
Member

Hi Renata,

Thank you for the feedback, I will share this with our team.

~ Goran
Upwork
petra_r
Member


@Renata S wrote:

I don't want my earnings publicized on this platform.
These are two examples (not mine). I don't want this.
 


 You already have this.


And if it is anything like mine, it's completely wrong!

 

EDITED - Ignore me, you don't have it on your profile because you have already set your earnings to private, so it does not get displayed. Those who have set their earnings to private don't have it but I believe clients you apply to or are interviewed by may ( I am NOT sure about that) see it.


@Petra R wrote:

@Renata S wrote:

I don't want my earnings publicized on this platform.
These are two examples (not mine). I don't want this.
 


 You already have this.


And if it is anything like mine, it's completely wrong!

 

EDITED - Ignore me, you don't have it on your profile because you have already set your earnings to private, so it does not get displayed. Those who have set their earnings to private don't have it but I believe clients you apply to or are interviewed by may ( I am NOT sure about that) see it.


 

Thanks for the offer, Petra. I appreciate that. I have seen them on my end. I needed to pay for extra connects this month because I ran out three days before mine were renewed -- I'm not sure if that's why I can see them. And I'm not really sure how correct mine are, either. I just know that my total is different depending on what part of the platform it shows up on. 

elastella
Member

I don't mind the total earnings being displayed (correctly!) but I dislike it being broken down like this.

 

Because, I cannot for the life of me understand how this will help a client decide whether I am right for their job or not!

I said this in another thread: they want to know if I was active (as in working) in the past 6 months? Just tell them. You can do that w/o showing them my wallet.

 

 

 

 

It's really not the same to earn X over the last 6 months or over the last 6 years. That being said, a client can compute whatever stats he dreams of, since they can see both your completed and in progress jobs once you apply.


@Andrei T wrote:

It's really not the same to earn X over the last 6 months or over the last 6 years. That being said, a client can compute whatever stats he dreams of, since they can see both your completed and in progress jobs once you apply.


Another issue I have with it being present is that people can make a variety of wrong assumptions about it. People may spend more or less time freelancing or may combine it with other types of work. So the dollar value doesn't really tell you a lot. The trouble is, when people see information, they may have a tendency to make up some kind of story about why it's there.

I've even had someone do that with "jobs in progress," although most people don't jump to strange conclusions. For me, "jobs in progress" translates to having jobs where the client is giving me one or two hours of work once or twice a month. But I've had one potential client who said "My god! You have 8 jobs in progress!" In reality, those 8 jobs might be generating 10 - 15 hours of work combined in a month.

There's already enough erroneous and/or oversimplified information available for people to misinterpret. They even misinterpret things that are actually correct, like how many current contracts I have, to mean things that aren't true. Why give them even more things to work with?





@Ela K wrote:

I don't mind the total earnings being displayed (correctly!) but I dislike it being broken down like this.

 

Because, I cannot for the life of me understand how this will help a client decide whether I am right for their job or not!

I said this in another thread: they want to know if I was active (as in working) in the past 6 months? Just tell them. You can do that w/o showing them my wallet.

 

 

 

 


I totally agree that they could indicate whether or not someone is active in a different way, and they could surely have figured out one that wasn't as intrusive. I don't know why anyone would consider doing it this way.  

I got used to the total earnings number, which has been wrong for quite a while. I guess it didn't tend to bother me because it was both vague and wrong. It actually shows up as a different number on different parts of the platform. 

 

I think these are useful numbers for a client to have.

 

I don't see how it's "intrusive."

 

The numbers are already in our work history.

 

Clients are the ones considering where to spend THEIR money.

 

I see this as similar to resources that show a doctor's surgical outcome statistics, or a mutual fund's annual performance statistics.

 

These are real numbers and they are provided to help consumers make informed choices.


@Preston H wrote:

I think these are useful numbers for a client to have.

 

These are real numbers and they are provided to help consumers make informed choices.


 They are if they are correct.

 

Mine, however, are absolutely and dramatically WRONG.

 

So they are, by definition, NOT "real numbers" and NOT useful and NOT helping ANYONE to make any informed choices.

 

The only informed choice this is helping me to make is to buy extra wine for when I can stop working today to blot out just how beeping wrong this beeping mess really is.


@Preston H wrote:

I think these are useful numbers for a client to have.

 

I don't see how it's "intrusive."

 

The numbers are already in our work history.

 

Clients are the ones considering where to spend THEIR money.

 

I see this as similar to resources that show a doctor's surgical outcome statistics, or a mutual fund's annual performance statistics.

 

These are real numbers and they are provided to help consumers make informed choices.


Not real numbers, because they're not accurate.

 

Averages are also misleading in general, because that assumes that jobs are all on the same basic scope. If I design a full 400-page book, that's a lot different than a job for a single flyer. The average between the two doesn't tell the client anything about the scope of work I do on a regular basis. These shortcut numbers remove context, and that's not useful information.

 

If a client is really all that interested in these kinds of statistics, they can do the math for themselves, assuming that the numbers Upwork reports in job history and total earnings are correct, which is a huge assumption.


@Jess C wrote:

@Preston H wrote:

I think these are useful numbers for a client to have.

 

I don't see how it's "intrusive."

 

The numbers are already in our work history.

 

Clients are the ones considering where to spend THEIR money.

 

I see this as similar to resources that show a doctor's surgical outcome statistics, or a mutual fund's annual performance statistics.

 

These are real numbers and they are provided to help consumers make informed choices.


Not real numbers, because they're not accurate.

 

Averages are also misleading in general, because that assumes that jobs are all on the same basic scope. If I design a full 400-page book, that's a lot different than a job for a single flyer. The average between the two doesn't tell the client anything about the scope of work I do on a regular basis. These shortcut numbers remove context, and that's not useful information.

 

If a client is really all that interested in these kinds of statistics, they can do the math for themselves, assuming that the numbers Upwork reports in job history and total earnings are correct, which is a huge assumption.


One thing I think is also important is that this is a cross-cultural platform. I don't think that displaying earnings would be seen in the same way in all countries. In fact, in some countries it and in some professions, it may not be considered positive.  I know that European privacy legislations are stricter than they are in North America, and that may be reflected in freelancers' attitudes towards privacy as well.

I'm not a fan of the one-size-fits-all mentality. We pay to use this platform, I don't see why choice is only an option if you want to pay extra. I think the whole premium plan idea should be scrapped because effectively, no one on this board is doing anything for free to begin with.  It's like we're being charged premiums on top of our regular premium premiums for any kind of privacy choice. 

I'm not sure why it's such a radical idea to UpWork that freelancers are their clients. I pay 20% on most of my contracts. That means I'm paying 7 times as much as my clients are in fees. Even when I'm paying 10%, I'm paying over 3 times as much. Doesn't that make me a client? Shouldn't I get the right to opt out of marketing with stats I think are useless at best and misleading and potentially damaging to smaller operators at worst without paying more than I'm already paying? I don't get why choice is such a radical thing if I'm paying that much for services already. 


@Renata S wrote:


I'm not a fan of the one-size-fits-all mentality. We pay to use this platform, I don't see why choice is only an option if you want to pay extra. 


 This mentality makes no sense to me.

 

I'm sitting in a Panera Bread right now and I just paid them ten bucks for a salad. The fact that I was paying them didn't entitle me to have them make me enchiladas (which they don't serve) or to have a server bring the food to my table (they don't have servers). If I wanted Mexican food brought to my table, I'd have gone to a Mexican restaurant with waiters.


@Tiffany S wrote:

@Renata S wrote:


I'm not a fan of the one-size-fits-all mentality. We pay to use this platform, I don't see why choice is only an option if you want to pay extra. 


 This mentality makes no sense to me.

 

I'm sitting in a Panera Bread right now and I just paid them ten bucks for a salad. The fact that I was paying them didn't entitle me to have them make me enchiladas (which they don't serve) or to have a server bring the food to my table (they don't have servers). If I wanted Mexican food brought to my table, I'd have gone to a Mexican restaurant with waiters.


I don't understand the point.  What I'm asking to do is not list a set of metrics that I don't believe are in my favor. It's like you're saying that I should pay something extra for the priviledge of asking them to hold the dressing. This probably costs nothing. And yes, UpWork does serve this, they will hold the dressing, but for an extra price. I've already earned the salad. I'm just asking that I be allowed to eat it in peace, without having to post a video of me eating it for my clients. That's hardly going to break the platform.  And, yes, I've already tipped the waitress. Twice.  


@Renata S wrote:

@Tiffany S wrote:

@Renata S wrote:


I'm not a fan of the one-size-fits-all mentality. We pay to use this platform, I don't see why choice is only an option if you want to pay extra. 


 This mentality makes no sense to me.

 

I'm sitting in a Panera Bread right now and I just paid them ten bucks for a salad. The fact that I was paying them didn't entitle me to have them make me enchiladas (which they don't serve) or to have a server bring the food to my table (they don't have servers). If I wanted Mexican food brought to my table, I'd have gone to a Mexican restaurant with waiters.


I don't understand the point.  What I'm asking to do is not list a set of metrics that I don't believe are in my favor. It's like you're saying that I should pay something extra for the priviledge of asking them to hold the dressing. This probably costs nothing. And yes, UpWork does serve this, they will hold the dressing, but for an extra price. I've already earned the salad. I'm just asking that I be allowed to eat it in peace, without having to post a video of me eating it for my clients. That's hardly going to break the platform.  And, yes, I've already tipped the waitress. Twice.  


 It doesn't cost in implementation (beyond the initial set-up), but if Upworks oft-repeated position is accurate, then it costs a lot in terms of income to the platform. 

 

I don't know why Upwork "serves" that option; I think it may simply be because some freelancers feel so strongly about it, and so the company is hoping a small enough number take advantage of the opportunity that it won't damage Upwork's business too badly, and perhaps the $10 will mitigate the losses somewhat. But, no business goes out of its way to make what's against its interests free and easy.

 


Tiffany S wrote:

 


 It doesn't cost in implementation (beyond the initial set-up), but if Upworks oft-repeated position is accurate, then it costs a lot in terms of income to the platform. 

 

I don't know why Upwork "serves" that option; I think it may simply be because some freelancers feel so strongly about it, and so the company is hoping a small enough number take advantage of the opportunity that it won't damage Upwork's business too badly, and perhaps the $10 will mitigate the losses somewhat. But, no business goes out of its way to make what's against its interests free and easy.


I don't believe it's that complicated.  It's a display option, nothing more, nothing less. And it's not as if UpWork is going to lose money if I fail to get a job. I completely don't understand that logic, if you can call it that. There's so much competition in my area that this sort of reasoning is bizarre. I don't believe there is a loss.

 

The new forum last week had a setting that allowed me the option if choosing which emojis I wanted to display. I it didn't appear to come with a $10 fee for service (yet). I think this is really trumped up.

If they really wanted to increase profitability, they could impose some measures to reduce the insane lowballing, or gee, how about a client minimum contract size? Let's ditch the $5 contract because surely that's costing a lot of money on the system. Why do freelancers pay more when clients have small projects? I don't determine the project size. 


@Renata S wrote:

 


 


 I completely don't understand that logic, if you can call it that.

 

No, clearly you don't. 

 

Why do freelancers pay more when clients have small projects? I don't determine the project size. 

 

Because when Upwork charges 10% on a $25 job, that job is often a net negative for Upwork. The alternative, since Upwork is not a public charity, would be to prohibit small projects altogether. But, there are good reasons not to do that, so Upwork instead found a way to at least break even on the tiny jobs that pay the company only a couple of bucks.


 

barada00
Member

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?

re: "Shall I open a client account just to see that?"

 

There is no good reason not to try out the client-side Upwork interface.

 

It doesn't cost anything. It is a good idea.

 

Just make sure you activate the client aspect of your CURRENT Upwork user account.

 

You will go to settings and create a client company. You will be using your current usename and password.


@Baris A wrote:

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?


 Give me a minute, Baris, I'll send you yours per PM

 

No point opening a client account as it is only visible to some clients.


@Petra R wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?


 Give me a minute, Baris, I'll send you yours per PM

 

No point opening a client account as it is only visible to some clients.


 Thank You  : )

Ela, who is rapidly becoming my most quoted FLer, wrote:

 

"I don't mind the total earnings being displayed (correctly!) but I dislike it being broken down like this.

 Because, I cannot for the life of me understand how this will help a client decide whether I am right for their job or not!

I said this in another thread: they want to know if I was active (as in working) in the past 6 months? Just tell them. You can do that w/o showing them my wallet."

 

BINGO!!!!!

1. The 6 month segment is ludicrous. misleading, and totally unneeded.

2. Total earnings has not been right since the merger. (mine is off by a minimum of 20k. If my total earnings were correct, I would have been 'removed' by U for inactivity.

3, My proposals, portfolio, and profile are what get me jobs. Not some silly and erroneous new number toy that Upwork decides to roll out while the entire platform falls apart. 

 

Just to add variety and to kudo another member, Petra wrote:

"So they are, by definition, NOT "real numbers" and NOT useful and NOT helping ANYONE to make any informed choices."

 

 


@Wendy C wrote:

 


Just to add variety@ and to kudo another member, Petra wrote:

"So they are, by definition, NOT "real numbers" and NOT useful and NOT helping ANYONE to make any informed choices."

 

 


 Thanks, Wendy. I just want to make sure everyone gets to read that one more time for extra emphasis.  Cat Happy

EDITED - Deleted as in completely wrong thread ...

 

 

 


@Petra R wrote:

Your JSS looks on the right side of right, meaning you're lucky it is as high as it is with such a very high percentage of clients stating outright that they would not recommend you. usually the JSS is in the same ballpark as that, at least approximately.....


You have a number of poor feedback and no feedback contracts.

 

 

 

 


Point taken. But I no longer view the JSS as a real number that communicates useful information. In my case, the no-feedback clients were people who were actually happy with the work. Sometimes the contracts were last minute, and in many cases, clients with last-minute projects just leave the platform quickly without leaving feedback once you've helped them meet their deadline. That is the case for people in a wide array of occupations (not only copy-editors and proofreaders, but also designers and sound people and video editors). I can show you some great examples of freelancer pages that have similar patterns of JSS scores. 

And in the case of a rushed client who didn't leave feedback, it's not in the freelancer's control, so it says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF VALUE about the freelancer's performance. In my view NO FEEDBACK = NO INFORMATION (meaning, quite simply, that 0 = 0). Unfortunately, in UpWork's view, NO FEEDBACK means UNHAPPY CLIENT (in other words 0 = -1) although the clients themselves have left nothing that specifically indicates their unhappiness. There is simply no case in which 0 can equal -1. Therefore, this information is not only useless, it's misleading and harmful to freelancers who took last-minute projects for people on evenings and weekends. It even means they're punished for keeping their clients happy. Can it get much more idiotic than that? 



@Renata S wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

Your JSS looks on the right side of right,


 Renata that post was NEVER meant to be in THIS thread and was actually meant to be to someone with 50ish % Clients recmmending and horrid feedback - I have no idea how I posted it here - apologies for the confusion!


@Petra R wrote:

@Renata S wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

Your JSS looks on the right side of right,


 Renata that post was NEVER meant to be in THIS thread and was actually meant to be to someone with 50ish % Clients recmmending and horrid feedback - I have no idea how I posted it here - apologies for the confusion!


Yes, Petra. I appreciate you correcting that. The suggestion that LUCK has something to do with my overall scores is more insulting than I have words to express. 



 


@Renata S wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

@Renata S wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

Your JSS looks on the right side of right,


 Renata that post was NEVER meant to be in THIS thread and was actually meant to be to someone with 50ish % Clients recmmending and horrid feedback - I have no idea how I posted it here - apologies for the confusion!


Yes, Petra. I appreciate you correcting that. The suggestion that LUCK has something to do with my overall scores is more insulting than I have words to express.
 


Oh god I really am dreadfully sorry, I had too many tabs open and never noticed I posted this too the wrong thread. It was a careless error. It was to someone with really poor outcomes and a super low Client-recommendations score and he really was lucky that his jSS wasn't far lower than the 68% it was.

 

I apologize unreservedly that you thought it was aimed at you.


@Petra R wrote:


Oh god I really am dreadfully sorry, I had too many tabs open and never noticed I posted this too the wrong thread. It was a careless error. It was to someone with really poor outcomes and a super low Client-recommendations score and he really was lucky that his jSS wasn't far lower than the 68% it was.

 

I apologize unreservedly that you thought it was aimed at you.


@ @Petra  Thanks. I really appreciate that. No harm done. Anything JSS-related is still a very sore spot for me. I think I might need trauma counselling, but this might be milking it a bit.  I am now at 94%, through no apparent fault of my own, so I can remind myself that there is nothing to worry about lately. 🙂 


@Baris A wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?


 Give me a minute, Baris, I'll send you yours per PM

 

No point opening a client account as it is only visible to some clients.


 Thank You  : )


You can also see your own stats by searching your own username in the box at the top of the site - just hit the arrow to change between jobs and freelancers.

 

Screen Shot 2017-10-07 at 12.31.29 PM.png


@Jess C wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?


 Give me a minute, Baris, I'll send you yours per PM

 

No point opening a client account as it is only visible to some clients.


 Thank You  : )


You can also see your own stats by searching your own username in the box at the top of the site - just hit the arrow to change between jobs and freelancers.

 

Screen Shot 2017-10-07 at 12.31.29 PM.png


 Or, even easier and also works for private profiles, by going to Find Jobs >> Profile

 

find jobs profile.jpg

 

 


@Petra R wrote:

@Jess C wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

@Baris A wrote:

I can't see that. Is it something only client accounts see? How can I learn how mine looks. I don't care that something like that about me is visible but I also want to see it. Shall I open a client account just to see that?


 Give me a minute, Baris, I'll send you yours per PM

No point opening a client account as it is only visible to some clients.


 Thank You  : )


You can also see your own stats by searching your own username in the box at the top of the site - just hit the arrow to change between jobs and freelancers.


Or, even easier and also works for private profiles, by going to Find Jobs >> Profile


At the time of my post, these stats were not showing directly on my profile, only in search results.

 

And that raises the question, if they're now showing on all freelancers' profiles, does that mean this new "feature" has been rolled out to ALL clients instead of a limited number?


@Jess C wrote:



At the time of my post, these stats were not showing directly on my profile, only in search results.

 

And that raises the question, if they're now showing on all freelancers' profiles, does that mean this new "feature" has been rolled out to ALL clients instead of a limited number?


 At the time of MY post I was not able to see them on my profile. Right now I am. So it should be a new addition.

tlsanders
Member

I don't think you should, but then I think that it's weird and unfortunate that Upwork makes it an option. Displaying earnings is either part of the business model or it's not. Reasonable people can differ as to whether or not it should be, but if there's a business reason to display it then allowing freelancers to opt out for ten bucks makes absolutely no sense.


@Tiffany S wrote:

I don't think you should, but then I think that it's weird and unfortunate that Upwork makes it an option. Displaying earnings is either part of the business model or it's not. Reasonable people can differ as to whether or not it should be, but if there's a business reason to display it then allowing freelancers to opt out for ten bucks makes absolutely no sense.


 It doesn't make sense. But if a million (or more) freelancers want to opt out - then it does - as a money earner - although ethics could be called into question.


@Nichola L wrote:

@Tiffany S wrote:

I don't think you should, but then I think that it's weird and unfortunate that Upwork makes it an option. Displaying earnings is either part of the business model or it's not. Reasonable people can differ as to whether or not it should be, but if there's a business reason to display it then allowing freelancers to opt out for ten bucks makes absolutely no sense.


 It doesn't make sense. But if a million (or more) freelancers want to opt out - then it does - as a money earner - although ethics could be called into question.


 Well, yes and no. At first glance, that makes sense, but Upwork has consistently claimed that freelancers showing earnings are more likely to be hired. If that's true, then wouldn't it be a net losing proposition (gaining $10 but losing potentially hundreds in fees)?


@Tiffany S wrote:

 

 Upwork has consistently claimed that freelancers showing earnings are more likely to be hired. If that's true, then wouldn't it be a net losing proposition (gaining $10 but losing potentially hundreds in fees)?

 But Upwork has yet to claim that displaying 6 month earnings and average earnings per job will never have a negative effect on the likelihood of being hired, yet it's either that or pay $10 monthly to omit all earnings. It's too bad Upwork doesn't observe the "first, do no harm" principle.

 

ETA: And while I understand that a client could go to the trouble of manually calculating recent and average earnings for each shortlisted applicant, having it provided in search results makes these metrics available with no expenditure of effort AND emphasizes recent & average earnings. I'm tired of repeating myself, but the average per job really concerns me, because I do lots of small jobs, and all things being equal, wouldn't it be human nature to choose a $1k average over a $100 average?

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

Multiple kudos coming at you, John.


@Wendy C wrote:

Multiple kudos coming at you, John.


 Thanks. I appended another comment by the way.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

The Average job stat also FAILS to  take into account that certain long-term clients currently do not close out jobs; they simply add the next $100, $1000, or $X allotment.  

 

Is U suggesting we INconvience clients by insisting we longer let them treat jobs in the way most convenient for the bookkeeping dept.?

 

This entire thing has never been thought out from any perspective.  But then, that is what we've all come to expect.

 

Until U can get provider total earnings correct ... how the he// do they possibly think they can use inaccurate numbers to draw any other stats from?