Amanda L wrote:
Mostafa A wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Mostafa A wrote:Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?
Got that thanks, thanks god he cannot issue 1 million refund
Why in the world would he be able to do that? I really encourage you to become more familiar with ALL of UpWork's TOS regarding both fixed and hourly projects. It seems like you've been lucky up to this point that there hasn't been any kind of miscommunication with the client, but I worry for you that you are on the road to additionaly disputes if you continue to work on UpWork without a clear grasp of the realities of how they allow things to be set up and the rules they go by. It was obvious to all of us what the outcome of your dispute would be, based on UpWork's TOS, yet it was not obvious to you. To me that says you are not as clear as you think you are on the TOS. Better to be safe than sorry, I say. Even if you're only going to stick to hourly from now, make sure you're fully versed on the rules of hourly contracts and payments so this doesn't happen again but now with an hourly dispute.
Believe it or not, we're rooting for you, not against you, which is why we're trying to help you understand where the misunderstanding is and where your mistakes were in this case. We all make mistakes. True growth comes when you admit them and learn from them.
Best of luck.
I thought this line was not included in TOS but it was there, well it is legal according to terms that arbitrator can give the client all freelancer's earned money.
I am very happy to be wrong when knowing something new. It is not "We" vs "You" I assume you are also freelancers we are the same, you can defend Upwork as you want I can also share my experience and this is the purpose of the community?.
After all missing such line does not mean I missed all the terms.
I think it is very good we are diging more into the terms and see what you as a freelancer can face with the Fixed Price Projects, you can end with paying all the money you earned, amazing. I believe many freelancers will find this post useful. I have been freelancing 10 years and never seen that.
Did you take opinions of everyone read this post? Also it does not matter how many disagree, only one person is enough to fall in trip, sharing his experience on community is for the benefit of other freelancers and for the Upwork system to improve (if they have intensions to improve), isnt that the purpose of community?
I agree 100%, that is why i dont think you should be telling people that fixed price contracts are not a good idea/avoid them when it is not the fixed price contract that is the issue, its your own lack of ability to use the system in the way you are supposed to.
I am not asking a judgement because, it requires someone with good knowledge about software development before good knowledge about the Upwork terms, to give opinion.(otherwise your opinion will be as random as AAA arbitrator)
Software development has nothing to do with upwork terms. Software development is your speciality, fine. But using upwork in the correct manner is the same for any proffession. You dont get special treatment and rules just because things dont fit 100% as you would like.
More on Milestones vs Contract, here are reasons why I finished milestones 2 & 3 together:
1- Both milestones technically linked together, you cannot approve or finish one without the other.
2- Both milestones are part of the initial contract requirements sent by client.
3- Both milestones are approved and funded by client in escrow.
4- sticking to deadlines, of the whole project.
5- Based on my 19 years of experience (as a freelancer and client) and 10 years on upwork, serious clients always get happier when their work is done, they never get scared 
If you cant finish one without the other then you should not have 2 milestones. Its quite simple.
Furthermore, YOU set the milestones, so i refer back to the fact you clearly refuse to understand how milestones work and how they are supposed to be used.
6- I already informed the client before proceeding Me: "Hi I am working on the remaining milestones all together so lets merge the milestones together with a reasonable deadline"
And how did your client respond? They certainly didnt agree to combine the milestones or you would not be arguing over milestone 3/4
Having that explained,
if someone still insist on the milestone story, can he/she provide any upwork documentation that says milestones breakdown change the original contract or turn themselves into contracts ?
Even the Upwork Dispute Agent could not find such documentation, here is the agent final opinion:
Agent: "Mostafa, it does not change the contract to sub contracts. a milestone is a payment that will be made once a certain part of the project is turned in"
They do not change the contract, but they ARE an agreement between you and your client about the deliverable part of the project therfor forming part of your ongoing contract. Its all laid out nice and clear under TERMS AND SETTINGS in your job - you can then see any changes to your contract under HISTORY OF CONTRACT CHANGES see the milestones there? well thats your confirmation that milestones form part of your contract.
You failed/refused to deliver on your agreement and thats why your in this situation.
A milestone is a "payment", within the contract, - when part is finished a milestone is paid, - when total project is finished all milestones are released and paid.
Yes, well done! - you said it....
when part is finished a milestone is paid - You refused to deliver the 'part' then wondered why you didnt get paid/had to refund.
Not sure what is difficult to understand. But if you still insist on Milestones justifications, and cannot provide terms or execuses why original contract was destroyed.
Original contract was not destroyed, BUT - YOU did not deliver the terms of the contract that you agreed with your client. The milestones are a part of the contract (look at 'history of contract changes' if your not sure) that is changes to your contract with your client and clearly lists the milestones as you deliver them and activate new ones ect.
You miss-understood the contractor example (things look rubbish when you can't understand), it meant that you cannot deliver a part of the building without the other after it was finished, (imaging there is only one bathroom in the upper floor)
But i would not ask the contractor for half the job, and neither did your client, they just wanted to approve the ground floor before you went ahead and built the next one.
Breaking down a project to milestones is a healthy procedure for the project and for the communication, it is not the fault of this technique to be missused to destroy the original contract, if there was someone to apply terms, it would have worked fine.
Yes it is if you know how to use them which you clearly dont, and clearly refuse to learn. it is you that has 'misused' the system and unfortunatly for you and your client its ended in a messy situation.
Mostafa,
I'd like to share this help article which describes Upwork Fixed-Price Protection and Payment System. Please, note that the client has an option to fund the whole project when sending an offer or only first milestone and then fund all consecutive milestones after releasing the previous one. Fixed-Price Protection is only available for funds in escrow, that's why it's recommended that the freelancer only does the work for the funded milestones and the amount held in Escrow is appropriate for the work you perform for that milestone.
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