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Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member

Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Ok so, I have finished a project for a client and I have to pay him money!

Yes I get punished for finishing a project, thanks for upwork, fixed prices, milestones and Dispute system.

I accepted the project based on requirements and agreed on the price, my only mistake I did was providing milestone for feature delivery (which I delivered on time), while the client used this to try to take the source code of the finished project, with 50% payment, without approving any of the work, claiming that: 

"No, I dont want this last milestone it was your decision to finish it"

I went to Dispute and AAA with confidence that I have delivered a project on time.

The AAA (so called neutral) does not allow you to submit more than one file (unless you pay more)

does not provide any sensible reason for the Award, for me seemed like the arbitrator does not understand or read the case, he/she just decide to take one side and adopt all his claims (probably based on names?) , I now realized why other people consider it a "lottery process" instead of arbitration.

The arbitrator was very generous with the client so he did not just give him the escrow, he also made a decision that I should pay the client (money back).

Man who are you to decide about my money?

This is totally non sense, and now I dont know if my top-rated upwork profile worth this small amount of money I have to pay, I can take paying money but I do not take this amount of non sense.

My case is clear:

- When I deliver a project  client should either approve  it or request changes not asking for parts of it because this is software and everything is linked together.

- Imagine I did not deliver the whole project the client would say "this is late delivery" and if it was delivered he can say "no I don't want this delivered", this is so good platform for non serious client.

- Upwork agent agreed that a milestone does not change the contract to sub contracts for client to choose which part to take.

 

I believe, If you have talent you should success anywhere, so my advice is to invest on more than one platform, may be they all like each others in terms of disputing in favor of clients, but having multiple platforms will give you more freedom to switch. When the platform becomes a platform for losing money/time.

105 REPLIES 105
Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Amanda L wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?


dumb.jpg

 


Got that thanks, thanks god he cannot issue 1 million refund


Why in the world would he be able to do that? I really encourage you to become more familiar with ALL of UpWork's TOS regarding both fixed and hourly projects.  It seems like you've been lucky up to this point that there hasn't been any kind of miscommunication with the client, but I worry for you that you are on the road to additionaly disputes if you continue to work on UpWork without a clear grasp of the realities of how they allow things to be set up and the rules they go by. It was obvious to all of us what the outcome of your dispute would be, based on UpWork's TOS, yet it was not obvious to you. To me that says you are not as clear as you think you are on the TOS. Better to be safe than sorry, I say.  Even if you're only going to stick to hourly from now, make sure you're fully versed on the rules of hourly contracts and payments so  this doesn't happen again but now with an hourly dispute. 

 

Believe it or not, we're rooting for you, not against you, which is why we're trying to help you understand where the misunderstanding is and where your mistakes were in this case. We all make mistakes. True growth comes when you admit them and learn from them. 

 

Best of luck. 


I thought this line was not included in TOS but it was there, well it is legal according to terms that arbitrator can give the client all freelancer's earned money. 


I am very happy to be wrong when knowing something new. It is not "We" vs "You" I assume you are also freelancers we are the same, you can defend Upwork as you want I can also share my experience and this is the purpose of the community?.

After all missing such line does not mean I missed all the terms.


I think it is very good we are diging more into the terms and see what you as a freelancer can face with the Fixed Price Projects, you can end with paying all the money you earned, amazing. I believe many freelancers will find this post useful. I have been freelancing 10 years and never seen that.

Joan's avatar
Joan S Community Member

Mostafa - Why would you even think that would be a possibility?

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member

1 million dollars is just expression because I believe the arbitration is random, 

for example, If we are working on a solid TOS system that the "Arbitrator" and the "Upwork Dispute Agent" follow the same TOS, why their Award is different? The Agent suggested escrow release while the arbitrator gave client more money.

In my opinion both of them are wrong because , according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes", and escrow is part of so called "Payment Protection" which Upwork only talked about.

Petra's avatar
Petra R Community Member


Mostafa wrote:

I believe the arbitration is random, 


It isn't random. You never stood a snowflake in hell's chance of winning arbitration for the reason you have been told over and over and over and over again, but try to ignore because you prefer presenting yourself as a victim rather than accepting you made a mistake.

 

You refused to hand over the code for the milestone you had already been paid for.

 


Mostafa A wrote:

The Agent suggested escrow release while the arbitrator gave client more money.

Untrue? The mediator did **NOT** suggest that at all. The mediator suggested that the Escrow money be returned to the client, but that you keep the money for the first milestone.

 

The mediator can not make a decision, only suggest a compromise. 

The decision was made by the arbitrator.

 


Mostafa A wrote:

In my opinion both of them are wrong 

It's been explained to you, over and over again. For some reason you either can't or don't want to grasp the basic concept.

Ultimately it does not matter. The ruling is legally binding. Pay up, man up, move on.

 


according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes",


Wrong.

Please take another look at the ToS. Properly this time.

If it still does not sink in, find someone with lots of patience to explain it to you.

Hakan's avatar
Hakan O Community Member

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?

Petra's avatar
Petra R Community Member


Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


That was milestone one and two.

Jennifer's avatar
Jennifer M Community Member


Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


It was the first two milestones, but he has to give back the $1400 plus now he's out an additional $291. lol

 

So by not just giving up the source code on milestone 2, he's now out $291. He's probably in the red on upwork and is working to pay off his debt. lol

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Jennifer M wrote:

Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


It was the first two milestones, but he has to give back the $1400 plus now he's out an additional $291. lol

 

So by not just giving up the source code on milestone 2, he's now out $291. He's probably in the red on upwork and is working to pay off his debt. lol


LOL, it is not as dark as that, I am very happy with my decisions, thanks for my experience in industry and in online freelancing, all these situations already had before, imagine giving source code for completed project and client cancels the contract, and upwork close eyes on terms and conditions sending me to a dummy AAA lottery arbiter, that would be the real loss.

I do not work for upwork, you break terms, don't ask me to follow terms, true freelancers do not work on one platform, world is much wider, I think the main loser is not me or the client it is the platform. and the only winner is AAA LOL

Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

No Mostafa, the only one who has lost here is you, and not just the money.

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Maria T wrote:

No Mostafa, the only one who has lost here is you, and not just the money.


I have actually won, I have learnt few new things about a platform, that I may have used in bigger deals in future, small experiences save us from big troubles, sharing it for the benefit of others.

Jonathan's avatar
Jonathan H Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes", and escrow is part of so called "Payment Protection" which Upwork only talked about.


And here is the problem..... you DID NOT deliver the project(milestone) and furthermore refused to supply it when asked in dispute. 

 

You say the client has only 2 choices, well so does the freelancer....

Supply the work and get paid, or dont!

 

 

It seems you have tried to use the milestone system to suit your own needs without realising that milestones actually form part of the contract. I dont think developers need to avoid fixed price at all, but they (along with any profession) need to be clear on how they work before entering into an agreement.

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Jonathan H wrote:


And here is the problem..... you DID NOT deliver the project(milestone) and furthermore refused to supply it when asked in dispute. 

 

You say the client has only 2 choices, well so does the freelancer....

Supply the work and get paid, or dont!

 


And here is the problem, you did not read the case. one more time, I am going to explain the milestone/source-code trip that was started by client and supported by Upwork Dispute:

 

You can think it two ways because of Upwork Ambigiouty:

1- If you want to consider the contract is the whole project (which is the real case as confirmed by dispute agent and upwork contract terms) , I have submitted work for the whole project, within its delivery time. and asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes" told him I am ready to work on any fixes.

2- If you want to consider milestones are "mini contracts" which is NOT TRUE, but that's the client's trick, Ok then I have submitted the work for milestones  2 & 3 on time. Asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes".


In both cases the client did not want to review the work, he put in a problem that cannot be solved , which is partially requesting a source code of second milestone only, why this is not possible:

1- Technically not possible on software, it is like you ask contractor to build a building and then saying I dont need the Upper floor give me only the ground floor. 

2- Denying a milestone requirements which has money in escrow, is that possible in upwork terms?

3- Taking source code of work that has not been paid or approved as functionality, this is anti-software.


I do not blame the client, I do blame the platform which did not apply terms and ask the client once to "Approve" or "Request changes" instead he supported his milestone/source-code story.


Please do not bring this point of milestones/source-code again, because I have explained enough. Give your question to Upwork to answer you if milestones breakdown convert initial contract to mini-contracts or if milestones can be cancelled or selected after been finished.

Jonathan's avatar
Jonathan H Community Member

And here is the problem, you did not read the case. one more time, I am going to explain the milestone/source-code trick that was done by client and supported by Upwork Dispute:

 

Yes, i did read the case, and its all very obvious to everyone (except you) there was no 'trick' this is how the system works and always has. If you failed to read the terms thats on you.

 

You can think it two ways because of Upwork Ambigiouty:

1- If you want to consider the contract is the whole project (which is the real case as confirmed by dispute agent and upwork contract terms) , I have submitted work for the whole project, within its delivery time. and asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes" told him I am ready to work on any fixes.

2- If you want to consider milestones are "mini contracts" which is NOT TRUE, but that's the client's trick, Ok then I have submitted the work for milestones  2 & 3 on time. Asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes".

 

NO, you can think of it only 1 way, and thats the way that is clearly set out in the ToS. 

 

Milestones are points that you work to. YOU set your own milestones, so clearly you do not understand the system and got it wrong.

The client wants the code they have paid for, you already said you wont give it until you have been paid but thats NOT how it works, you supply the product (code) FIRST then get the money in the same way you did for milestone 1.

 

 

In both cases the client did not want to review the work, he put in a problem that cannot be solved , which is partially requesting a source code of second milestone only, why this is not possible:

 

Thats because you DIDNT GIVE HIM THE WORK (the code) - If you gave it to him then he would review it and release payment, that is how the system works, no ifs no buts.

 

 

1- Technically not possible on software, it is like you ask contractor to build a building and then saying I dont need the Upper floor give me only the ground floor. 

 

RUBBISH! - furthermore if i ask a contractor to build a house and THEY set 'first floor' as a milestone then i have every right to see that first floor before i approve further work on the upper floor. That way i can stop work when i realise the incompetent contractor has started building my house round instead of square like i asked.

 

 

2- Denying a milestone requirements which has money in escrow, is that possible in upwork terms?

 

YES, when YOU deny the client the work - like you did. You even said as much in dispute so it baffles me how you are suprised that it didnt go your way!

 

3- Taking source code of work that has not been paid or approved as functionality, this is anti-software.

 

You managed it just fine on the first milestone! If you dont want to provide work until the project is complete then dont setup multiple milestones, you set up just 1 for the whole project. But you already know that as the dispute team pointed it out several times to you.

 

I do not blame the client, I do blame the platform which did not apply terms and ask the client once to "Approve" or "Request changes" and supported his milestone/source code tricks.

 

There are no 'tricks' i'm afraid you only have yourself to blame as you dont know how to use the system properly and didnt set the fixed price job up in a suitable manner for the way you work (plenty of coders that manage just fine, so the 'this is only applicable to coders; argument is irrelevant.

 

Please do not bring this point of milestones/source-code again, because I have explained enough.

 

You can explain all you like, its irrelevant, thats not how it works. everyone has told you the same, including your dispute yet you still insist its not possible. Aside from the fact that many people manage it just fine, if its not possible DONT USE MULTIPLE MILESTONES! 

 

Give your question to Upwork to answer you if milestones breakdown convert initial contract to mini-contracts or if milestones can be cancelled or selected after been finished.

 

You can call them what you like, but milestone are a part of your contract, you did milestone 1 just fine, then refused to do milestone 2 the same way so the client refused to carry on with the project. If you carried on thats on you, the client was happy to complete the project but wanted what they had already paid for.

Petra's avatar
Petra R Community Member


Jonathan H wrote:

 

Yes, i did read the case, and its all very obvious to everyone (except you)


That is the single most baffling aspect of this mammoth thread...

Jonathan's avatar
Jonathan H Community Member


Petra R wrote:


That is the single most baffling aspect of this mammoth thread...


Its a shame, it's gotta sting loosing that money/time but if you dont learn from it and accept your own shortcomings then its just a matter of time before something similar happens again.

 

Everyone makes mistakes, and in this case the mistakes are both very clear and very costly (to both client and freelancer). I hope the OP spends a bit of time figuring out how the system works properly so he can avoid similar situations in the future on either fixed price or hourly contracts.

 

 

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member

First please calm down, you are working too hard on this post 🙂



Jonathan H wrote:

Yes, i did read the case, and its all very obvious to everyone (except you)

Did you take opinions of everyone read this post? Also it does not matter how many disagree, only one person is enough to fall in trip, sharing his experience on community is for the benefit of other freelancers and for the Upwork system to improve (if they have intensions to improve), isnt that the purpose of community?

If some people think Upwork is their papa and have to defend it, I understand, but other true freelancers who sells their hours have the right to exhange experiences.

I am not asking a judgement because, it requires someone with good knowledge about software development before good knowledge about the Upwork terms, to give opinion.(otherwise your opinion will be as random as AAA arbitrator)

 

Milestones are points that you work to. YOU set your own milestones, so clearly you do not understand the system and got it wrong.

More on Milestones vs Contract, here are reasons why I finished milestones 2 & 3 together:

1- Both milestones technically linked together, you cannot approve or finish one without the other.

2- Both milestones are part of the initial contract requirements sent by client.

3- Both milestones are approved and funded by client in escrow.

4- sticking to deadlines, of the whole project.

5- Based on my 19 years of experience (as a freelancer and client) and 10 years on upwork, serious clients always get happier when their work is done, they never get scared 🙂

6- I already informed the client before proceeding Me: "Hi I am working on the remaining milestones all together so lets merge the milestones together with a reasonable deadline"

 

Having that explained,

if someone still insist on the milestone story, can he/she provide any upwork documentation that says milestones breakdown change the original contract or turn themselves into contracts ? 

Even the Upwork Dispute Agent could not find such documentation, here is the agent final opinion:

Agent: "Mostafa, it does not change the contract to sub contracts. a milestone is a payment that will be made once a certain part of the project is turned in"

 

A milestone is a "payment", within the contract, - when part is finished a milestone is paid, - when total project is finished all milestones are released and paid.

 

Not sure what is difficult to understand. But if you still insist on Milestones justifications, and cannot provide terms or execuses why original contract was destroyed.

If that's the case let's agree that it is at least AMBIGIOUS?

Still No?

Then can we keep respect for other opinions and leave the post for other true freelancers to learn from it without judging things you don't really understand. 

 

RUBBISH! - furthermore if i ask a contractor to build a house and THEY set 'first floor' as a milestone then i have every right to see that first floor before i approve further work

You miss-understood the contractor example (things look rubbish when you can't understand), it meant that you cannot deliver a part of the building without the other after it was finished, (imaging there is only one bathroom in the upper floor)

Aside from the fact that many people manage it just fine, if its not possible DONT USE MULTIPLE MILESTONES! 

Breaking down a project to milestones is a healthy procedure for the project and for the communication, it is not the fault of this technique to be missused to destroy the original contract, if there was someone to apply terms, it would have worked fine.

Rather I would avoid doing that on Upwork, and avoid Fixed Price Project, and probably avoid a platform that did not do any effort to apply its terms or the contract terms.

Jonathan's avatar
Jonathan H Community Member

Did you take opinions of everyone read this post? Also it does not matter how many disagree, only one person is enough to fall in trip, sharing his experience on community is for the benefit of other freelancers and for the Upwork system to improve (if they have intensions to improve), isnt that the purpose of community?

 

I agree 100%, that is why i dont think you should be telling people that fixed price contracts are not a good idea/avoid them when it is not the fixed price contract that is the issue, its your own lack of ability to use the system in the way you are supposed to.

 

I am not asking a judgement because, it requires someone with good knowledge about software development before good knowledge about the Upwork terms, to give opinion.(otherwise your opinion will be as random as AAA arbitrator)

 

Software development has nothing to do with upwork terms. Software development is your speciality, fine. But using upwork in the correct manner is the same for any proffession. You dont get special treatment and rules just because things dont fit 100% as you would like.

 

More on Milestones vs Contract, here are reasons why I finished milestones 2 & 3 together:

1- Both milestones technically linked together, you cannot approve or finish one without the other.

2- Both milestones are part of the initial contract requirements sent by client.

3- Both milestones are approved and funded by client in escrow.

4- sticking to deadlines, of the whole project.

5- Based on my 19 years of experience (as a freelancer and client) and 10 years on upwork, serious clients always get happier when their work is done, they never get scared Smiley Happy

 

If you cant finish one without the other then you should not have 2 milestones. Its quite simple.

Furthermore, YOU set the milestones, so i refer back to the fact you clearly refuse to understand how milestones work and how they are supposed to be used.

 

6- I already informed the client before proceeding Me: "Hi I am working on the remaining milestones all together so lets merge the milestones together with a reasonable deadline"

 

And how did your client respond? They certainly didnt agree to combine the milestones or you would not be arguing over milestone 3/4

 

Having that explained,

if someone still insist on the milestone story, can he/she provide any upwork documentation that says milestones breakdown change the original contract or turn themselves into contracts ? 

Even the Upwork Dispute Agent could not find such documentation, here is the agent final opinion:

Agent: "Mostafa, it does not change the contract to sub contracts. a milestone is a payment that will be made once a certain part of the project is turned in"

 

They do not change the contract, but they ARE an agreement between you and your client about the deliverable part of the project therfor forming part of your ongoing contract. Its all laid out nice and clear under TERMS AND SETTINGS in your job - you can then see any changes to your contract under HISTORY OF CONTRACT CHANGES see the milestones there? well thats your confirmation that milestones form part of your contract. 

You failed/refused to deliver on your agreement and thats why your in this situation.

 

A milestone is a "payment", within the contract, - when part is finished a milestone is paid, - when total project is finished all milestones are released and paid.

 

Yes, well done! - you said it....

when part is finished a milestone is paid - You refused to deliver the 'part' then wondered why you didnt get paid/had to refund.

 

Not sure what is difficult to understand. But if you still insist on Milestones justifications, and cannot provide terms or execuses why original contract was destroyed.

 

Original contract was not destroyed, BUT - YOU did not deliver the terms of the contract that you agreed with your client. The milestones are a part of the contract (look at 'history of contract changes' if your not sure) that is changes to your contract with your client and clearly lists the milestones as you deliver them and activate new ones ect.

 

You miss-understood the contractor example (things look rubbish when you can't understand), it meant that you cannot deliver a part of the building without the other after it was finished, (imaging there is only one bathroom in the upper floor)

But i would not ask the contractor for half the job, and neither did your client, they just wanted to approve the ground floor before you went ahead and built the next one.

 

 

Breaking down a project to milestones is a healthy procedure for the project and for the communication, it is not the fault of this technique to be missused to destroy the original contract, if there was someone to apply terms, it would have worked fine.

 

Yes it is if you know how to use them which you clearly dont, and clearly refuse to learn. it is you that has 'misused' the system and unfortunatly for you and your client its ended in a messy situation.

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Jonathan H wrote:

................................


Ok its good that you talk in behalf of Upwork and client point of view, then reply me, please only with terms and conditions:

The story from begining:

- We have Project description and full requirements document that we discussed then project is approved 

- So I got Contract terms : You accepted Client's offer for a $Amount fixed-price project

 

We have 2 arguments:

1- Contract/terms Says: freelancer should finish the requirements in deadline and submit work, client should "Approve work" or "Request changes". which is what every freelancer is doing for ages nothing complicated with that.

2- What actually happened:

- If a project is broken down to milestones, freelancer should only work on milestone and provide source code for each step. He is not allowed to finish the initial contract. and get approval for it as a whole project.

 

The two arguments cannot work together, if the second argument is true, then the first argument is false (i.e the initial contract is destroyed since freelancer cannot get approval for it.)

 

If you believe in second argument, please provide where is this in terms and conditions. If it is only your opinion,I respect it but please let's not repeat opinions.

Tiffany's avatar
Tiffany S Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

 

1- Both milestones technically linked together, you cannot approve or finish one without the other.

 

Then, by definition, they are NOT MILESTONES. The entire purpose of an Upwork milestone is to define a discrete piece of the project that you can complete, submit, have approved and receive payment for as a standalone unit.

 

Over and over again, you clearly describe how you set the project up wrong, then tell us it's a flaw in the fixed price system. It's not. You simply didn't use the system as intended, and so it couldn't work as intended.

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Tiffany S wrote:

...............


Ok fine, I have got enough advices about how I was wrong, now, can you prove you are right? 

can I just get one answer based on Terms and Conditions? 

Here is my simple question,

Ok its good that you talk in behalf of Upwork and client point of view, then reply me, please only with terms and conditions:

The story from begining:

- We have Project description and full requirements document that we discussed then project is approved 

- So I got Contract terms : You accepted Client's offer for a $Amount fixed-price project

 

We have 2 arguments:

1- Contract/terms Says: freelancer should finish the requirements in deadline and submit work, client should "Approve work" or "Request changes". which is what every freelancer is doing for ages nothing complicated with that.

2- What actually happened:- If a project is broken down to milestones, freelancer should only work on milestone and provide source code for each step. He is not allowed to finish the initial contract. and get approval for it as a whole project. This something new for me I have never seen in my 10 years with online software freelancing, so for me it needs to be proven by terms.

 

Problem:

The two arguments cannot work together, if the second argument is true, then the first argument is false (i.e the initial contract is destroyed since freelancer cannot get approval for it as a whole project.)

 

If you believe in second argument, please provide where is this in terms and conditions. If it is only your opinion,I respect it but please let's not repeat opinions.

Valeria's avatar
Valeria K Community Member

Mostafa,

 

I'd like to share this help article which describes Upwork Fixed-Price Protection and Payment System. Please, note that the client has an option to fund the whole project when sending an offer or only first milestone and then fund all consecutive milestones after releasing the previous one. Fixed-Price Protection is only available for funds in escrow, that's why it's recommended that the freelancer only does the work for the funded milestones and the amount held in Escrow is appropriate for the work you perform for that milestone.

~ Valeria
Upwork
Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Valeria K wrote:

Mostafa,

Fixed-Price Protection is only available for funds in escrow, that's why it's recommended that the freelancer only does the work for the funded milestones and the amount held in Escrow is appropriate for the work you perform for that milestone.


In my case I have delivered work for milestones in escrow but I did not find any "Fixed-Price Protection" the Dispute agent never said anything about it, he suggested it go back to client, never asked the client to review work, and passed the dispute to AAA which I guess their arbiter never heard about it.

What is the value of having this feature if it is not applicable, you would say it is my mistake? ok , imagine it is not me, someone who was perfect and wanted to use the Fixed Protection feature, even if the dispute agent wants to apply it, he cannot , because the dispute will still go to AAA third party who may not be familiar with this feature or may not have time to look into case carefully to apply all your terms.

In other words what is the value of having terms if you are sending to third party which nobody can be sure about their awareness of all and updated terms or awareness of the type of project (like software etc.)

Amanda's avatar
Amanda L Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Valeria K wrote:

Mostafa,

Fixed-Price Protection is only available for funds in escrow, that's why it's recommended that the freelancer only does the work for the funded milestones and the amount held in Escrow is appropriate for the work you perform for that milestone.


In my case I have delivered work for milestones in escrow but I did not find any "Fixed-Price Protection" the Dispute agent never said anything about it, he suggested it go back to client, never asked the client to review work, and passed the dispute to AAA which I guess their arbiter never heard about it.

 

You didn't though, you refused to deliver source code for the 2nd milestone.  There was nothing for the client to review because you wouldn't release the work to the client. 

 

What is the value of having this feature if it is not applicable, you would say it is my mistake? ok , imagine it is not me, someone who was perfect and wanted to use the Fixed Protection feature, even if the dispute agent wants to apply it, he cannot , because the dispute will still go to AAA third party who may not be familiar with this feature or may not have time to look into case carefully to apply all your terms.

In other words what is the value of having terms if you are sending to third party which nobody can be sure about their awareness of all and updated terms or awareness of the type of project (like software etc.)

 

You are arguing all these strawmen instead of just accepting that YOU failed to keep to the terms that YOU set.  If you had delivered the source code and this had gone to arbitration it would have been a different story, and who knows, at that point, what the outcome would be. But you made it pretty simple for the arbiter since you wouldn't deliver the source code and at it's most basic the contract was deliver source code and get paid at four different milestones. At milestone 2, you refused to deliver source code, so you lose. What are you getting out of continuing to try and be right about this?  You've been told how it works. You said you don't want to work fixed price, so don't. Move on and go back to work and make some money already. The thread exists for people who want to learn what not to do from your wonderful example. I really don't see what the point is of you continuing to argue this. 


 

Mostafa's avatar
Mostafa A Community Member


Amanda L wrote:

......................


Ok fine, I have got enough advices about how I was wrong, now, can you prove you are right? 

can I just get one answer based on Terms and Conditions? 

Here is my simple question, please only with terms and conditions:

The story from begining:

- We have Project description and full requirements document that we discussed then project is approved 

- So I got Contract terms : You accepted Client's offer for a $Amount fixed-price project

 

We have 2 arguments:

1- Contract/terms Says: freelancer should finish the requirements in deadline and submit work, client should "Approve work" or "Request changes". which is what every freelancer is doing for ages nothing complicated with that.

2- What actually happened:- If a project is broken down to milestones, freelancer should only work on milestone and provide source code for each step. He is not allowed to finish the initial contract. and get approval for it as a whole project. This something new for me I have never seen in my 10 years with online software freelancing, so for me it needs to be proven by terms.

 

Problem:

The two arguments cannot work together, if the second argument is true, then the first argument is false (i.e the initial contract is destroyed since freelancer cannot get approval for it as a whole project.)

 

If you believe in second argument, please provide where is this in terms and conditions. If it is only your opinion,I respect it but please let's not repeat opinions.

Amanda's avatar
Amanda L Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Amanda L wrote:

......................


Ok fine, I have got enough advices about how I was wrong, now, can you prove you are right? 

can I just get one answer based on Terms and Conditions? 

Here is my simple question, please only with terms and conditions:

The story from begining:

- We have Project description and full requirements document that we discussed then project is approved 

- So I got Contract terms : You accepted Client's offer for a $Amount fixed-price project

 

We have 2 arguments:

1- Contract/terms Says: freelancer should finish the requirements in deadline and submit work, client should "Approve work" or "Request changes". which is what every freelancer is doing for ages nothing complicated with that.

2- What actually happened:- If a project is broken down to milestones, freelancer should only work on milestone and provide source code for each step. He is not allowed to finish the initial contract. and get approval for it as a whole project. This something new for me I have never seen in my 10 years with online software freelancing, so for me it needs to be proven by terms.

 

Problem:

The two arguments cannot work together, if the second argument is true, then the first argument is false (i.e the initial contract is destroyed since freelancer cannot get approval for it as a whole project.)

 

If you believe in second argument, please provide where is this in terms and conditions. If it is only your opinion,I respect it but please let's not repeat opinions.


First of all, I don't need to prove I'm right about anything. 

 

There aren't 2 arguments. What you fail to see is that bothe 1 and 2 are true. Your contract covers a whole project. The contract/project are broken down into milestones and you work on each milestone like it's a project phase. No, you do not work on the whole thing at once. You work on each phase/milestone individually and get the client's approval on each before you progress to the next. If you need to complete all the milestones together or they overlap, then what will be delivered at each milestone needs to be clearly spelled out (you were inconsistent with delivering source code, which is where the problem arose for you, and you did not specify when source code would be delivered within the contract or its milestones) OR if the milestones overlap and there cannot be deliverables for each milestone/phase, you need to combine them so that there can be.  

 

You need to understand how project management works. Your overall contract states a deadline for the full project to be complete. Your milestones set dates for specific tasks within the contract to be complete, deliverables to be delivered, and you to get paid. You work on one milestone at a time until the contract is complete. 

 

It doesn't need to be proven by terms. But regardless, you have seen plenty of places that you do not work on milestones until they are funded. Why  would you even begin to work on a future milestone without approval from the client on the previous milestone? That would only mean you'd have even more to go back and fix if they wanted a revision, because you'd based the current work off of something that had to be revised. Why make MORE work for yourself? 

 

I'm not scouring terms and conditions for you. You've had plenty of people - who have been extremely successful with fixed price contracts - tell you this is where you've gone wrong and why you're having problems. Why does it even matter to you since you don't want to work fixed price anymore?   You still want to just be right. UpWork isn't going to dictate timelines to clients and freelancers. Nor are they going to dictate to you exactly how to set up milestones for your project. Everyone here has told you the BEST PRACTICES for setting up fixed price contracts, which you did not do, and so lost in arbitration. Why does anyone need to prove anything to you? The proof is in the fact that you lost. 

 

And we will post as many opinions as we want. You posted on an open forum, so you get what you get.