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Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
101 of 106

Amanda L wrote:
.............................


Sorry, my purpose here is to avoid repeating OPINIONS and stick to TERMS to save time for everyone especially readers. That's why I have asked anybody who has an opinion, to scroll up, if he already said this opinion before (or someone else said it), there is no need to repeat it. 

If someone can answer me based on TERMS and Conditions, please go ahead with a quote from TOS:

 

can I just get one answer based on Terms and Conditions? 

Here is my simple question, please reply ONLY with terms and conditions:

The story from begining:

- We have Project description and full requirements document that we discussed then project is approved 

- So I got Contract terms : You accepted Client's offer for a $Amount fixed-price project

 

We have 2 arguments:

1- Contract/terms Says: freelancer should finish the requirements in deadline and submit work, client should "Approve work" or "Request changes". which is what every freelancer is doing for ages nothing complicated with that.

2- What actually happened:- If a project is broken down to milestones, freelancer should only work on milestone and provide source code for each step. He is not allowed to finish the initial contract. and get approval for it as a whole project. This something new for me I have never seen in my 10 years with online software freelancing, so for me it needs to be proven by terms.

 

Problem:

The two arguments cannot work together, if the second argument is true, then the first argument is false (i.e the initial contract is destroyed since freelancer cannot get approval for it as a whole project.)

 

If you believe in second argument, please provide where is this in terms and conditions. If it is only your opinion,I respect it but please let's not repeat opinions.

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
102 of 106

Read the links that Valeria posted. Those explain the terms and how milestones work. 

 

Again, why should anyone bother responding to you anymore since you don't want to understand fixed price and since you're not going to work fixed price anymore?  

Active Member
Hakan O Member Since: Apr 22, 2019
103 of 106

Mostafa,

Is it possible that you mostly worked in**Edited for Community Guidelines**and confused their fixed-price/milestone system with Upwork's? If that is the case I can understand your frustration, because I have been there.

 

In Upwork, in my first fixed price contract which included several milestones, I was shocked that client funded only the first milestone. I was expecting that he would be funding the whole project amount and release parts of it when I complete milestones.

 

So in the progress of the project at some point I found myself exactly in the same situation as you: I have already finished 90% of the project while client paid only 50% of the whole amount and the rest of the project were not funded yet. What would happen if client chose not to pay the rest?

 

I thought like this: Milestone system's working like that was not client's fault, and not Upwork's fault either; it was defined at the beginning. It was my fault not knowing how the system works. If it was vaguely defined, I should have asked. I shouldn't have assumed that it would work as I thought.

 

So I didn't reflect any bit of my confusion and trusting the client (there was no reason to think the opposite), I continued the project. Client funded the other milestones without even asked to do so and project finished with complete success. I received the best client review of my work life. If you wish, you can see in my profile Smiley Happy

 

Although more risky, fixed price projects are acceptable. But you need to calculate that risk and reflect the risk factor to your price, which I think you already did. However you didn't handle the conflict correctly, because in short:

1) You didn't emphathize with the client. He doesn't need to be in bad faith unless you noticed something indicative of that, but you didn't mention anything about it here. In his job history there is a big project in which freelancer disappeared. Probably client was left with a non functional code although paid for it in full. So it is understandable that he was (over) precautious to you.

2) You were over confident and you didn't assess your position correctly. You should have opened this topic before escalating the conflict to dispute.

 

Being a freelancer requires project management skills in addition to technical skills. It is easy to blame the system, blame the customer, blame the laptop, blame the operating system, etc. It is easy to find excuses why it (project, product, etc) failed. You may have excellent technical skills and perfect work history, but at the end of the day, what matters for everyone else except the one who blames others and/or find excuses, is the result. A failed project is the failure of the project manager.

 

If this topic has comments openly expressing that they are happy because you lost money (although I resent them), I think it is time to calm down and ask to yourself: Maybe I was wrong.

 

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
104 of 106

Hakan O wrote:

 

If this topic has comments openly expressing that they are happy because you lost money (although I resent them), I think it is time to calm down and ask to yourself: Maybe I was wrong.

 


No one is happy he lost money. But we all can clearly see why it happened, and none of us are surprised. Everyone is trying to explain so he won't lose money in the future. But any further explanation, even direction towards UpWork ToS or definitions, is useless. 

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
105 of 106

Thank you Hakan for sharing your experience.


Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is it possible that you mostly worked in freelancer.com and confused their fixed-price/milestone system with Upwork's? If that is the case I can understand your frustration, because I have been there.

I am working on **Edited for Community Guidelines**and other platforms, like I said I am long time in this, it all works the same, I did not ask him to fund the whole project I finished work for amount in escrow (I think having amount in escrow means it should be finished by freelancer there is nothing platform specific there?)

 

In Upwork, in my first fixed price contract which included several milestones, I was shocked that client funded only the first milestone. I was expecting that he would be funding the whole project amount and release parts of it when I complete milestones.

 

So in the progress of the project at some point I found myself exactly in the same situation as you: I have already finished 90% of the project while client paid only 50% of the whole amount and the rest of the project were not funded yet. What would happen if client chose not to pay the rest?

 

I thought like this: Milestone system's working like that was not client's fault, and not Upwork's fault either; it was defined at the beginning. It was my fault not knowing how the system works. If it was vaguely defined, I should have asked. I shouldn't have assumed that it would work as I thought.

 

So I didn't reflect any bit of my confusion and trusting the client (there was no reason to think the opposite), I continued the project. Client funded the other milestones without even asked to do so and project finished with complete success. I received the best client review of my work life. If you wish, you can see in my profile Smiley Happy

I did not even go in this confusion That's what I did also I continued the whole project pushed by my good intentions and positive thinking, I would prefer to trust the terms but I did "Trusting THE CLIENT" like you said, Finished his work 100% which I always do. Now I trusted the client intentions and invested my time on his work, why he does not approve the work and follow terms? Instead the clients behaviour was : - Denying part of the requirements - Asking for source code for the whole project - This will leave me without any remaining positive thinking, because you should know that when client takes source code of the whole project, thats the end of the project of this type, end the project without approving it was delivered, would you do that? I do respect my work and I do not give it for free.

 

I am not saying it is wrong to trust the client, you should always do until proven wrong, Additionally if you are on Upwork Fixed Price System, you have to do so because you do not have anything else to trust.

 

Although more risky, fixed price projects are acceptable. But you need to calculate that risk and reflect the risk factor to your price, which I think you already did. However you didn't handle the conflict correctly

It is 100% risky, when no terms are applied. like I said this model cannot be trusted for bigger deals or complicated communications and this is the main point,

you want to calculate the risks here they are:

- Is client in good faith?, this is the main risk because Upwork told him that he can take all his escrow (as well as released money) back from freelancer if he wants to!

- Will dispute agent bring the terms and conditions?

- Will dispute agent send you to AAA?

- Did the AAA arbiter read terms and conditions of Upwork?

- Is the AAA arbiter has enough time today or he is busy with 100 cases?.

1) You didn't emphathize with the client.

I do emphasize with client I do not blame him, Upwork told him he can do whatever he wants. So why not he takes advantages

 

In his job history there is a big project in which freelancer disappeared.

This does not bring emphasizing, that raises another question why did another freelancer disappeared and quit Upwork? because of the client? because of Upwork system? Or because of freelancer? You cannot tell.

 

2) You were over confident and you didn't assess your position correctly.

it is not about confident that I would won I already know how things works on freelancing Disputes, chances of freelancers are like 10% regardless the terms, I just went through because we are in process of learning all the time, and now I have learned about Upwork and their Dispute system, and that's my award that I am happy with that could save me more troubles in future.

 

Being a freelancer requires project management skills in addition to technical skills.

Believe it or not I have 19 years of experience I know how things works I work with international clients since 2009, I do blame the system ambiguity and a dispute system that closed eyes on terms and conditions, what is the purpose of a platform if no terms applies

 

If this topic has comments openly expressing that they are happy because you lost money (although I resent them), I think it is time to calm down and ask to yourself: Maybe I was wrong.

I am very glad that these kind of people are happy may be they need to be so hard? .. Be happy Smiley Happy

 

May be you should calm down about proving me wrong and for one time try to prove you are right?

I am asking you NOT FOR ME , not for this case, not for who was right and who was wrong

I am asking you to question the platform, the Fixed Price terms and dispute system, .

 

I ask you to question it for yourself, just in your mind - Is this something I can trust? ... How far can I trust it? What is the project value limit that I can accept this risk with (100$ / 1000$)?

 

If your work style is waiting for client to decide for you about contracts and terms, then, I am sorry I think your chances to get bigger in business are much less.

.

Still looking for a quote from Upwork terms and conditions that justify what happens : Please no opinions , only quote from terms!

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Why-you-should-avoid-Fixed-Priced-And-use-multiple-platf...

Moderator
Vladimir G Moderator Member Since: Oct 31, 2014
106 of 106

Hi all,

 

Thank you for participating in this discussion. I'll close the thread for new replies since the conversation ran its course and all the details and viewpoints have been discussed and reiterated.

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