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mosta2
Community Member

Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Ok so, I have finished a project for a client and I have to pay him money!

Yes I get punished for finishing a project, thanks for upwork, fixed prices, milestones and Dispute system.

I accepted the project based on requirements and agreed on the price, my only mistake I did was providing milestone for feature delivery (which I delivered on time), while the client used this to try to take the source code of the finished project, with 50% payment, without approving any of the work, claiming that: 

"No, I dont want this last milestone it was your decision to finish it"

I went to Dispute and AAA with confidence that I have delivered a project on time.

The AAA (so called neutral) does not allow you to submit more than one file (unless you pay more)

does not provide any sensible reason for the Award, for me seemed like the arbitrator does not understand or read the case, he/she just decide to take one side and adopt all his claims (probably based on names?) , I now realized why other people consider it a "lottery process" instead of arbitration.

The arbitrator was very generous with the client so he did not just give him the escrow, he also made a decision that I should pay the client (money back).

Man who are you to decide about my money?

This is totally non sense, and now I dont know if my top-rated upwork profile worth this small amount of money I have to pay, I can take paying money but I do not take this amount of non sense.

My case is clear:

- When I deliver a project  client should either approve  it or request changes not asking for parts of it because this is software and everything is linked together.

- Imagine I did not deliver the whole project the client would say "this is late delivery" and if it was delivered he can say "no I don't want this delivered", this is so good platform for non serious client.

- Upwork agent agreed that a milestone does not change the contract to sub contracts for client to choose which part to take.

 

I believe, If you have talent you should success anywhere, so my advice is to invest on more than one platform, may be they all like each others in terms of disputing in favor of clients, but having multiple platforms will give you more freedom to switch. When the platform becomes a platform for losing money/time.

105 REPLIES 105
lysis10
Community Member


Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

 

I agree with your assessment though. However, as freelancers we have to live with the uncertainty that at any time any client can choose to discontinue work with us. That's also why all my contracts (at least outside of UpWork) have a 30 day clause in them to complete work, turn it over, and phase out the contract. On UpWork I'm careful to set up milestones in such a way that if the client decides they need to walk away, I'm not damaged by that. It serves a business so much better to try and work with clients than draw a line in the sand and become adversarial, as the OP did. 


Right, if you're charging an additional fee for revisions, then setting up an additional milestone makes sense. But most writers will quote a price and part of it is "revisions" and they don't get paid in full due to the way they set up milestones. That's why I tell clients that I will do escrow, but they are paying me more than hourly due to me tacking on additional money for revisions if necessary. They don't get that money back either if they are fine with the draft. It's all or nothing. I tell them that hourly will be cheaper, so it's up to them how they want to work but escrow will always cost more.

 

The only real uncertainty is a chargeback, but I am confident that 95% of the time, the client won't get their money back if they try to dispute or arbitrate. This guy's mediation went totally different than mine, because he refused to give up code on a milestone. My mediation is never about delivery, it's just the client doesn't want to pay cuz he doesn't like the work. But again, I won't work without full escrow either, so I am disputing the full amount AND I know in my head that even if I compromise and take a payout, I'm still getting paid for my time. Escrow with me is always way way more expensive because I have all of this calculated out.

a_lipsey
Community Member

Yes, I agree. Fixed-price escrow is actually more expensive for clients working with me as well. Hourly is actually a much better deal in many instances, but for some reason they think they will get swindled. And certainly I can see how that might happen, but if you manage your consultant carefully, it shouldn't really. 

 

You really do have to be super careful with fixed-price contracts in terms and deliverables and payout schedules. I think a lot of people get by on trust with fixed-price, and 95% of the time it all works out okay. Then the other 5% come here to complain about mistakes that could have been avoided and try and blame it on the "system."  I hope this thread has helped some people learn some things about how to set up effective fixed-price contracts. I think there's a lot of good advice here. 


Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

Amanda, what often happens to new writers on Upwork is that the client escrows 10-20% of the contract price for the first draft and the bulk of payment is reserved for the final draft. Then, when the first draft is received, the client releases the $10 (or whatever), closes the contract, and walks away with a product on which the writer has done 90%+ of the work.


Tiffany S wrote:

Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

Amanda, what often happens to new writers on Upwork is that the client escrows 10-20% of the contract price for the first draft and the bulk of payment is reserved for the final draft. Then, when the first draft is received, the client releases the $10 (or whatever), closes the contract, and walks away with a product on which the writer has done 90%+ of the work.


And if they agree to that then I'm not sure I have much pity for them. 


Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.

petra_r
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.


All you had to do is hand over the bleep-bleep source code for the milestone you were bleeping well PAID for.

 

If you had not be so obstinate, you'd likely have finished the entire contract by now and have been paid in full for the whole lot.


You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 

mosta2
Community Member


You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 


I believe I should have won the arbitration because the client had no right to ask for source code of 100% of the project while he

1- Did not fund the remaining amount of the contract.

2- Did not approve the submitted finished work, even denying it is a requirements.

 

According to upwork terms, when freelancer submit work , the client has two options
1- Approve the work  and release money.
2- Request changes and freelancer continue.

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.

petra_r
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 


I believe I should have won the arbitration because the client had no right to ask for source code of 100% of the project while he

1- Did not fund the remaining amount of the contract.

2- Did not approve the submitted finished work, even denying it is a requirements.

 

According to upwork terms, when freelancer submit work , the client has two options
1- Approve the work  and release money.
2- Request changes and freelancer continue.

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.


You were paid for milestone 2

You did not hand over the code for milestone 2

The end. There was no way in the known universe you would have won arbitration based on that nonsense.

 

It doesn't really matter. You agreed, legally binding, to accept and to abide by the arbitrator's ruling.

Learn from it, do what you agreed to do, move on.

 

mosta2
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

The end. There was no way in the known universe you would have won arbitration based on that nonsense.

 

It doesn't really matter. You agreed, legally binding, to accept and to abide by the arbitrator's ruling.

Learn from it, do what you agreed to do, move on.

 


You are not making sense to me too, I suggest you calm down, you are working hard on this post ๐Ÿ™‚

About Arbitration: I had no choice to go to lottery arbitration, I expect Upwork to apply its terms and conditions a finished project (submitted work) should be either "Approved" or "Request changes" for it.

Not playing the milestone, source code game. It was so obvious to Upwork who was taking the job seriously.

petra_r
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:


About Arbitration: I had no choice to go to lottery arbitration


Of course you had a choice, it would have been $ 291 cheaper for you (and Upwork, and the client) not to go to arbitration. The arbitration outcome was a foregone conclusion... You were paid for milestone 2 and did not hand over the code for what you were paid for.

mosta2
Community Member


Petra R wrote:
Of course you had a choice, it would have been $ 291 cheaper for you (and Upwork, and the client) not to go to arbitration. The arbitration outcome was a foregone conclusion... You were paid for milestone 2 and did not hand over the code for what you were paid for.

This means I have only choice to lose money/time?
What about my chances to get the terms applied, to get Upwork force the client to either "Approve" or "Request Changes" for a project which was delivered on time?

I respect my time, if the platform instead of applying terms, let an arbitrator decide about my money and time, arbitrator who may not have read the terms or the case, or does not know about software development process, then this platform is making fun of us.

Milestones again? please read above , project is 100% finished he cannot have the source code because he paid 2 milestones out of 4 milestones, if you don't approve work you CANNOT ask for source code you can only ask for changes (ABC software)

I hope I don't have to explain again.


Mostafa A wrote:

 

This means I have only choice to lose money/time?

 No, not at all, all you had to do is hand over the code as you agreed when you started the contract and as the client asked you in dispute. You then would have kept the money from milestone 2 and probably of been paid for milestone 3 by now.

 

It seems you are trying to make your own past experience a valid argument for changing the way Upwork operates, but thats not how things work.

Its like me going to the USA and getting pulled over for driving on the wrong side of the road then arguing that i am driving correctly as ive driven on the left for the past 20 years.

Its irrelevant as that is not the rules where i am trying to drive.


Mostafa A wrote:

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.


There is no barganing room in the milestone model.

 

YOU used it wrong, the client didnt go a third way, YOU provided the code for the first milestone so of course he expects it for the next one. 

The code is what he is paying for, so thats what you need to provide.


Mostafa A wrote:

Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.


 

Then you clearly have no idea how milestones work or how you are supposed to use them. 

 

You did NOT HAVE to work on them, there was no gun to your head, by your own admission it was YOU that set the milestones. You need to make sure that when you set milestones they are suitable for the type of work you are doing, and more importantly, make them work for you. 

 

However, saying you wont give the code until you have been paid is not how escrow works.

The whole point is the client puts the money into escrow and you then submit the work knowing that the money has already been paid. By refusing to provide the work (the code) for that milestone you are denying the client there part of the deal. It is not the clients fault if you setup the milestones wrong and now dont want to provide code. I would suggest if you do another fixed price contract you setup a milestone that is at a point that you would be happy to provide the work.

tlsanders
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.

If you created the milestones and they were "too much linked together," then they were not proper milestones and, as several others have pointed out, the problem occurred because you didn't use the system properly.

trixxmanaty
Community Member

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.

Kudakwashe,

 

There are no doubt many projects where the fixed price arrangement makes more sense than hourly payment but, based on messages on this board, both new freelancers and new clients too often misunderstand how the fixed price system works and how they can set up milestones, submit work, etc. in ways that provide them both with maximum, though never total, protection from fraud and dishonesty.

 

Some things can only be learned by experience - Upwork doesn't (and can't) provide fail-safe guidance in its tutorials and other documents about how fixed price projects work.

 

And no client or freelancer should depend on Upwork to resolve their poor planning, unclear communications or misunderstanding of how to best protect themselves.

Will,

 

It all depends on trust between the client and the freelancer. So far on Upwork, I have had only one bad client with regards to fixed-term contracts.

 

The Dispute centre is of no help to freelancers if the client does not want to pay and come to an agreement. My worry is that there are certain clients who will continue to use this channel and take advantage of freelancers. 

 

What is Upwork doing to prevent situations like this?

Kudakwashe,

 

You should not expect Upwork wlll do anything to put itself in the middle of certain types of disputes and be the final arbiter of what is a "fair" solution on thousands of small projects a year.

 

There is no way Upwork can commit people and other resources to mediate on a $30 project that costs Upwork more than the $6.90 cents it earns when the freelancer paid for six connects (6 x $0.15 = $0.90) and the 20% fee ($30 x 20% = $6.00).

 

This is why we should expect Upwork would like to see the volume low-value projects wither away and continue to try to drive average project values well beyond the couple of hundred dollars range.


Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)


Mostafa A wrote:

Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)


Let me get this straight. You've spent this whole thread complaining about fixed price contracts and telling other freelancers to avoid them. Then somebody finally agrees with you (which I assume is what you meant by a "constructive reply") and now you're walking it back? I feel mislead.


Christine A wrote:


Let me get this straight. You've spent this whole thread complaining about fixed price contracts and telling other freelancers to avoid them. Then somebody finally agrees with you (which I assume is what you meant by a "constructive reply") and now you're walking it back? I feel mislead.


Thanks for making sense, This reply was not agreeing with me, he is only asking a question, questions are constructive by nature,

I think it is the first constructive because other replies are more like judgements. which is not what I a m looking for, the dispute is finished anyway. not looking for a new one.

I am looking for fellow freelancers, to warn them about these type of Fixed Price projects and the kind of support they may get by platform.

I only try to answer him because, I have 10 years of online freelancing. There was times where a freelancer has no jobs and only offered Fixed Prices, if that is the case I provided these precautions he can take.

I still believe it should be avoided and avoided.

kfarnell
Community Member

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.


Kim F wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.


Exactly. Most of my work has been fixed price and well over $300. It has worked out just fine for me. Often I do end up putting in perhaps an hour or two more than I intended orginally, but mostly that's because I want all my clients to have the very best work possible, and I like to go the extra mile. But it's always figured into  my quote that I will do this to an extent because I know myself well enough by now.  I work with plenty of other consultants as collaborators and they also use fixed-price contracts for the most part because clients need an accurate quote of what it will cost and if it will be within their budget. What people don't seem to realize is that all contracts may be opened for re-negotiation. It happens all the time for me because my clients (a) see what great value and quality I provide and would like to add to my scope of work and increase the contract or (b) the client for some reason needs to extend the timeline so we make an adjustment or (c) some other variable that we need to address in writing. It's not bad to adjust the contract when projects shift, and ALL projects shift, in my experience. Maybe because mine all generally take a few months to complete at the least, so I don't do short projects that only take a week or a few days. But it's not bad to put in writing what the new expectation is. And I have found that clients appreciate when you address these things directly so they know exactly what to expect. Also, if a client is paying you a reasonable fee and releasing milestones and being a good client, it's in your best interest to try and fulfill their requests and keep them happy because in my experience a happy client is a returning client, and it's way better to work with someone you know than someone you don't. 

 

To the OP, almost everyone has agreed with you that fixed price doesn't work for you. So I don't know why you think none of us have provided constructive feedback. Everyone has tried to explain how  and when fixed price can work effectively, and you have argued with everyone that you are right. I'm sorry our explanations have fallen on deaf ears. 

 

You definitely should avoid fixed price at all costs in the future. It does not suit you. No one is forcing you to work fixed price. So don't. 

 

If you do choose to work fixed price in the future, address specifically when source code will be delivered in your quote. Frankly that you say you've been doing this so long and you didn't think to address this with your client is a little puzzling. You see other developers on here say all the time how clear they make deliverables such as source code in their contracts. I would have called this a rookie mistake, not a complex situation that befell an experienced freelancer. 

mtngigi
Community Member


Kim F wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.


Right on, Kim. Except for a few gigs on Elance, I only work fixed price contracts, and they have worked very well for me. There is nothing to avoid, only to learn better how these kinds of contracts and milestones work.


Kim F wrote:

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

Same. I've done quite a few successful fixed price projects that ran to several thousands dollars--a few over $10,000, and one over $50,000.

mosta2
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)


Fourth: As a freelancer you should invest on more than one platform, so when a platform does not work well for you, you can switch to good standing profile on another platform. You are a free-lancer after all not working for any platform.

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Mostafa,

 

I'm sorry you had a negative experience with a contract being disputed and going into arbitration and I appreciate you sharing your feedback with the rest of the Community. Note, however, that posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication is against the Community Guidelines and that's why the links and screenshots you posted were removed. I encourage everybody on this thread to take a look at the Guidelines before posting on these boards further and make sure their replies are professional and respectful. 

 

I checked on your ticket and an confirm that the dispute and arbitration was handled in accordance with Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions. Please, refer to the section 6.8: "You agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitratorโ€™s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon."

~ Valeria
Upwork


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Mostafa,

 

I'm sorry you had a negative experience with a contract being disputed and going into arbitration and I appreciate you sharing your feedback with the rest of the Community. Note, however, that posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication is against the Community Guidelines and that's why the links and screenshots you posted were removed. I encourage everybody on this thread to take a look at the Guidelines before posting on these boards further and make sure their replies are professional and respectful. 

 

I checked on your ticket and an confirm that the dispute and arbitration was handled in accordance with Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions. Please, refer to the section 6.8: "You agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitratorโ€™s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon."


As mentioned in 5.2 CANCELLATION BY CLIENT which is our case:

"If Client wants to cancel a contract with funds held in escrow, Client must click to close the contract."

"If Freelancer disputes the cancellation, Freelancer and Client will be offered Upwork Dispute Assistance"

Yes, I disputed the amount in escrow.

I went to AAA, because Upwork cannot force its terms and conditions on the client and ask him to either "Approve the work" or "Request changes". Instead, Upwork Dispute agent wanted to adopt the milestones/source-code story, which he could not justify by any of Upwork terms/documentation. I think this has also affected the dispute.

I lost AAA dispute about the amount in escrow, that happens, but, Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform?

What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?
What is the value of Upwork terms then? You think you won't make anybody angry when hiding behind AAA?

I then suggest you remove your terms and let the arbitration lottery handle the dispute, that would make more sense.

joansands
Community Member

Well, Mostafa, where I come out on all this is that you should avoid fixed rate contracts but I will not.

mosta2
Community Member


Joan S wrote:

Well, Mostafa, where I come out on all this is that you should avoid fixed rate contracts but I will not.


I would say developers should avoid it, editors should not, like I said Fixed Price model is easier crashing on bigger projects that may require more complicated communication

a_lipsey
Community Member

My projects are quite complicated and have many moving parts and take multiple months to complete. Fixed price works just fine for me. And it clearly works well for other developers too. If it doesn't work for you that is fine; it does not mean it's bad for every developer, nor does it mean writers/editors or other professionals have less complicated projects than you. 

petra_r
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?


dumb.jpg

 

There has to come a point where you will stop making a public spectacle of your mismanagement of your contract. Why don't you take a deep breath and begin to understand how you can avoid this kind of abject nonsense in the future...

 

 

mosta2
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?


dumb.jpg

 


Got that thanks, thanks god he cannot issue 1 million refund

a_lipsey
Community Member


Mostafa A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?


dumb.jpg

 


Got that thanks, thanks god he cannot issue 1 million refund


Why in the world would he be able to do that? I really encourage you to become more familiar with ALL of UpWork's TOS regarding both fixed and hourly projects.  It seems like you've been lucky up to this point that there hasn't been any kind of miscommunication with the client, but I worry for you that you are on the road to additionaly disputes if you continue to work on UpWork without a clear grasp of the realities of how they allow things to be set up and the rules they go by. It was obvious to all of us what the outcome of your dispute would be, based on UpWork's TOS, yet it was not obvious to you. To me that says you are not as clear as you think you are on the TOS. Better to be safe than sorry, I say.  Even if you're only going to stick to hourly from now, make sure you're fully versed on the rules of hourly contracts and payments so  this doesn't happen again but now with an hourly dispute. 

 

Believe it or not, we're rooting for you, not against you, which is why we're trying to help you understand where the misunderstanding is and where your mistakes were in this case. We all make mistakes. True growth comes when you admit them and learn from them. 

 

Best of luck. 

mosta2
Community Member


Amanda L wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Mostafa A wrote:

Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform? What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?


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Got that thanks, thanks god he cannot issue 1 million refund


Why in the world would he be able to do that? I really encourage you to become more familiar with ALL of UpWork's TOS regarding both fixed and hourly projects.  It seems like you've been lucky up to this point that there hasn't been any kind of miscommunication with the client, but I worry for you that you are on the road to additionaly disputes if you continue to work on UpWork without a clear grasp of the realities of how they allow things to be set up and the rules they go by. It was obvious to all of us what the outcome of your dispute would be, based on UpWork's TOS, yet it was not obvious to you. To me that says you are not as clear as you think you are on the TOS. Better to be safe than sorry, I say.  Even if you're only going to stick to hourly from now, make sure you're fully versed on the rules of hourly contracts and payments so  this doesn't happen again but now with an hourly dispute. 

 

Believe it or not, we're rooting for you, not against you, which is why we're trying to help you understand where the misunderstanding is and where your mistakes were in this case. We all make mistakes. True growth comes when you admit them and learn from them. 

 

Best of luck. 


I thought this line was not included in TOS but it was there, well it is legal according to terms that arbitrator can give the client all freelancer's earned money. 


I am very happy to be wrong when knowing something new. It is not "We" vs "You" I assume you are also freelancers we are the same, you can defend Upwork as you want I can also share my experience and this is the purpose of the community?.

After all missing such line does not mean I missed all the terms.


I think it is very good we are diging more into the terms and see what you as a freelancer can face with the Fixed Price Projects, you can end with paying all the money you earned, amazing. I believe many freelancers will find this post useful. I have been freelancing 10 years and never seen that.

joansands
Community Member

Mostafa - Why would you even think that would be a possibility?

mosta2
Community Member

1 million dollars is just expression because I believe the arbitration is random, 

for example, If we are working on a solid TOS system that the "Arbitrator" and the "Upwork Dispute Agent" follow the same TOS, why their Award is different? The Agent suggested escrow release while the arbitrator gave client more money.

In my opinion both of them are wrong because , according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes", and escrow is part of so called "Payment Protection" which Upwork only talked about.

petra_r
Community Member


Mostafa wrote:

I believe the arbitration is random, 


It isn't random. You never stood a snowflake in hell's chance of winning arbitration for the reason you have been told over and over and over and over again, but try to ignore because you prefer presenting yourself as a victim rather than accepting you made a mistake.

 

You refused to hand over the code for the milestone you had already been paid for.

 


Mostafa A wrote:

The Agent suggested escrow release while the arbitrator gave client more money.

Untrue? The mediator did **NOT** suggest that at all. The mediator suggested that the Escrow money be returned to the client, but that you keep the money for the first milestone.

 

The mediator can not make a decision, only suggest a compromise. 

The decision was made by the arbitrator.

 


Mostafa A wrote:

In my opinion both of them are wrong 

It's been explained to you, over and over again. For some reason you either can't or don't want to grasp the basic concept.

Ultimately it does not matter. The ruling is legally binding. Pay up, man up, move on.

 


according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes",


Wrong.

Please take another look at the ToS. Properly this time.

If it still does not sink in, find someone with lots of patience to explain it to you.

puckrobin
Community Member

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?

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