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Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
41 of 106

Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

 

I agree with your assessment though. However, as freelancers we have to live with the uncertainty that at any time any client can choose to discontinue work with us. That's also why all my contracts (at least outside of UpWork) have a 30 day clause in them to complete work, turn it over, and phase out the contract. On UpWork I'm careful to set up milestones in such a way that if the client decides they need to walk away, I'm not damaged by that. It serves a business so much better to try and work with clients than draw a line in the sand and become adversarial, as the OP did. 


Right, if you're charging an additional fee for revisions, then setting up an additional milestone makes sense. But most writers will quote a price and part of it is "revisions" and they don't get paid in full due to the way they set up milestones. That's why I tell clients that I will do escrow, but they are paying me more than hourly due to me tacking on additional money for revisions if necessary. They don't get that money back either if they are fine with the draft. It's all or nothing. I tell them that hourly will be cheaper, so it's up to them how they want to work but escrow will always cost more.

 

The only real uncertainty is a chargeback, but I am confident that 95% of the time, the client won't get their money back if they try to dispute or arbitrate. This guy's mediation went totally different than mine, because he refused to give up code on a milestone. My mediation is never about delivery, it's just the client doesn't want to pay cuz he doesn't like the work. But again, I won't work without full escrow either, so I am disputing the full amount AND I know in my head that even if I compromise and take a payout, I'm still getting paid for my time. Escrow with me is always way way more expensive because I have all of this calculated out.

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
42 of 106

Yes, I agree. Fixed-price escrow is actually more expensive for clients working with me as well. Hourly is actually a much better deal in many instances, but for some reason they think they will get swindled. And certainly I can see how that might happen, but if you manage your consultant carefully, it shouldn't really. 

 

You really do have to be super careful with fixed-price contracts in terms and deliverables and payout schedules. I think a lot of people get by on trust with fixed-price, and 95% of the time it all works out okay. Then the other 5% come here to complain about mistakes that could have been avoided and try and blame it on the "system."  I hope this thread has helped some people learn some things about how to set up effective fixed-price contracts. I think there's a lot of good advice here. 

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
43 of 106

Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

Amanda, what often happens to new writers on Upwork is that the client escrows 10-20% of the contract price for the first draft and the bulk of payment is reserved for the final draft. Then, when the first draft is received, the client releases the $10 (or whatever), closes the contract, and walks away with a product on which the writer has done 90%+ of the work.

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
44 of 106

Tiffany S wrote:

Amanda L wrote:


If a client decides they want to just take my first draft and do revisions themselves, I'm fine with that. At least in my line of work. In fact, clients often take my work (complete with revisions) and come back to me to pay me to revise it to use again in another application, so, it really depends on the field how you set up the milestones. 

Amanda, what often happens to new writers on Upwork is that the client escrows 10-20% of the contract price for the first draft and the bulk of payment is reserved for the final draft. Then, when the first draft is received, the client releases the $10 (or whatever), closes the contract, and walks away with a product on which the writer has done 90%+ of the work.


And if they agree to that then I'm not sure I have much pity for them. 

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
45 of 106

Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
46 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.


All you had to do is hand over the bleep-bleep source code for the milestone you were bleeping well PAID for.

 

If you had not be so obstinate, you'd likely have finished the entire contract by now and have been paid in full for the whole lot.


You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
47 of 106

You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 


I believe I should have won the arbitration because the client had no right to ask for source code of 100% of the project while he

1- Did not fund the remaining amount of the contract.

2- Did not approve the submitted finished work, even denying it is a requirements.

 

According to upwork terms, when freelancer submit work , the client has two options
1- Approve the work  and release money.
2- Request changes and freelancer continue.

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
48 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

You clearly can't win arbitration when you refused to hand over the bleepedy-bleeped deliverable for the milestone you were paid for. No code = No money.

 


I believe I should have won the arbitration because the client had no right to ask for source code of 100% of the project while he

1- Did not fund the remaining amount of the contract.

2- Did not approve the submitted finished work, even denying it is a requirements.

 

According to upwork terms, when freelancer submit work , the client has two options
1- Approve the work  and release money.
2- Request changes and freelancer continue.

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.


You were paid for milestone 2

You did not hand over the code for milestone 2

The end. There was no way in the known universe you would have won arbitration based on that nonsense.

 

It doesn't really matter. You agreed, legally binding, to accept and to abide by the arbitrator's ruling.

Learn from it, do what you agreed to do, move on.

 

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
49 of 106

Petra R wrote:

The end. There was no way in the known universe you would have won arbitration based on that nonsense.

 

It doesn't really matter. You agreed, legally binding, to accept and to abide by the arbitrator's ruling.

Learn from it, do what you agreed to do, move on.

 


You are not making sense to me too, I suggest you calm down, you are working hard on this post Smiley Happy

About Arbitration: I had no choice to go to lottery arbitration, I expect Upwork to apply its terms and conditions a finished project (submitted work) should be either "Approved" or "Request changes" for it.

Not playing the milestone, source code game. It was so obvious to Upwork who was taking the job seriously.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
50 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:


About Arbitration: I had no choice to go to lottery arbitration


Of course you had a choice, it would have been $ 291 cheaper for you (and Upwork, and the client) not to go to arbitration. The arbitration outcome was a foregone conclusion... You were paid for milestone 2 and did not hand over the code for what you were paid for.

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