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Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
51 of 106

Petra R wrote:
Of course you had a choice, it would have been $ 291 cheaper for you (and Upwork, and the client) not to go to arbitration. The arbitration outcome was a foregone conclusion... You were paid for milestone 2 and did not hand over the code for what you were paid for.

This means I have only choice to lose money/time?
What about my chances to get the terms applied, to get Upwork force the client to either "Approve" or "Request Changes" for a project which was delivered on time?

I respect my time, if the platform instead of applying terms, let an arbitrator decide about my money and time, arbitrator who may not have read the terms or the case, or does not know about software development process, then this platform is making fun of us.

Milestones again? please read above , project is 100% finished he cannot have the source code because he paid 2 milestones out of 4 milestones, if you don't approve work you CANNOT ask for source code you can only ask for changes (ABC software)

I hope I don't have to explain again.

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
52 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

 

This means I have only choice to lose money/time?

 No, not at all, all you had to do is hand over the code as you agreed when you started the contract and as the client asked you in dispute. You then would have kept the money from milestone 2 and probably of been paid for milestone 3 by now.

 

It seems you are trying to make your own past experience a valid argument for changing the way Upwork operates, but thats not how things work.

Its like me going to the USA and getting pulled over for driving on the wrong side of the road then arguing that i am driving correctly as ive driven on the left for the past 20 years.

Its irrelevant as that is not the rules where i am trying to drive.

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
53 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

But client went a third way asking for source code, while denying the requirements. Using the milestone model to bargain.

Upwork instead of applying the terms, they give him chance to take money from freelancer.


There is no barganing room in the milestone model.

 

YOU used it wrong, the client didnt go a third way, YOU provided the code for the first milestone so of course he expects it for the next one. 

The code is what he is paying for, so thats what you need to provide.

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
54 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

Jonathan H wrote:

You should not be working on a milestone that has not yet been approved by the client. 

Your chat has been removed, but by the sounds of it you worked further ahead than the client asked you to? 

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.


 

Then you clearly have no idea how milestones work or how you are supposed to use them. 

 

You did NOT HAVE to work on them, there was no gun to your head, by your own admission it was YOU that set the milestones. You need to make sure that when you set milestones they are suitable for the type of work you are doing, and more importantly, make them work for you. 

 

However, saying you wont give the code until you have been paid is not how escrow works.

The whole point is the client puts the money into escrow and you then submit the work knowing that the money has already been paid. By refusing to provide the work (the code) for that milestone you are denying the client there part of the deal. It is not the clients fault if you setup the milestones wrong and now dont want to provide code. I would suggest if you do another fixed price contract you setup a milestone that is at a point that you would be happy to provide the work.

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
55 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

We have already covered this point, all milestones I worked on was created by me for estimation and was agreed and funded by client. So actually it was not choice , I HAD TO WORK ON THEM to deliver on time, otherwise the deadline would have been missed and secondly the two milestones are too much linked together.

If you created the milestones and they were "too much linked together," then they were not proper milestones and, as several others have pointed out, the problem occurred because you didn't use the system properly.

Active Member
Kudakwashe Z Member Since: Aug 20, 2018
56 of 106

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.

Community Guru
Will L Member Since: Jul 9, 2015
57 of 106

Kudakwashe,

 

There are no doubt many projects where the fixed price arrangement makes more sense than hourly payment but, based on messages on this board, both new freelancers and new clients too often misunderstand how the fixed price system works and how they can set up milestones, submit work, etc. in ways that provide them both with maximum, though never total, protection from fraud and dishonesty.

 

Some things can only be learned by experience - Upwork doesn't (and can't) provide fail-safe guidance in its tutorials and other documents about how fixed price projects work.

 

And no client or freelancer should depend on Upwork to resolve their poor planning, unclear communications or misunderstanding of how to best protect themselves.

Active Member
Kudakwashe Z Member Since: Aug 20, 2018
58 of 106

Will,

 

It all depends on trust between the client and the freelancer. So far on Upwork, I have had only one bad client with regards to fixed-term contracts.

 

The Dispute centre is of no help to freelancers if the client does not want to pay and come to an agreement. My worry is that there are certain clients who will continue to use this channel and take advantage of freelancers. 

 

What is Upwork doing to prevent situations like this?

Community Guru
Will L Member Since: Jul 9, 2015
59 of 106

Kudakwashe,

 

You should not expect Upwork wlll do anything to put itself in the middle of certain types of disputes and be the final arbiter of what is a "fair" solution on thousands of small projects a year.

 

There is no way Upwork can commit people and other resources to mediate on a $30 project that costs Upwork more than the $6.90 cents it earns when the freelancer paid for six connects (6 x $0.15 = $0.90) and the 20% fee ($30 x 20% = $6.00).

 

This is why we should expect Upwork would like to see the volume low-value projects wither away and continue to try to drive average project values well beyond the couple of hundred dollars range.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
60 of 106

Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)

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