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Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Community Guru
Christine A Member Since: May 4, 2016
61 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)


Let me get this straight. You've spent this whole thread complaining about fixed price contracts and telling other freelancers to avoid them. Then somebody finally agrees with you (which I assume is what you meant by a "constructive reply") and now you're walking it back? I feel mislead.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
62 of 106

Christine A wrote:


Let me get this straight. You've spent this whole thread complaining about fixed price contracts and telling other freelancers to avoid them. Then somebody finally agrees with you (which I assume is what you meant by a "constructive reply") and now you're walking it back? I feel mislead.


Thanks for making sense, This reply was not agreeing with me, he is only asking a question, questions are constructive by nature,

I think it is the first constructive because other replies are more like judgements. which is not what I a m looking for, the dispute is finished anyway. not looking for a new one.

I am looking for fellow freelancers, to warn them about these type of Fixed Price projects and the kind of support they may get by platform.

I only try to answer him because, I have 10 years of online freelancing. There was times where a freelancer has no jobs and only offered Fixed Prices, if that is the case I provided these precautions he can take.

I still believe it should be avoided and avoided.

Community Guru
Kim F Member Since: Aug 26, 2015
63 of 106

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.

Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
64 of 106

Kim F wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.


Exactly. Most of my work has been fixed price and well over $300. It has worked out just fine for me. Often I do end up putting in perhaps an hour or two more than I intended orginally, but mostly that's because I want all my clients to have the very best work possible, and I like to go the extra mile. But it's always figured into  my quote that I will do this to an extent because I know myself well enough by now.  I work with plenty of other consultants as collaborators and they also use fixed-price contracts for the most part because clients need an accurate quote of what it will cost and if it will be within their budget. What people don't seem to realize is that all contracts may be opened for re-negotiation. It happens all the time for me because my clients (a) see what great value and quality I provide and would like to add to my scope of work and increase the contract or (b) the client for some reason needs to extend the timeline so we make an adjustment or (c) some other variable that we need to address in writing. It's not bad to adjust the contract when projects shift, and ALL projects shift, in my experience. Maybe because mine all generally take a few months to complete at the least, so I don't do short projects that only take a week or a few days. But it's not bad to put in writing what the new expectation is. And I have found that clients appreciate when you address these things directly so they know exactly what to expect. Also, if a client is paying you a reasonable fee and releasing milestones and being a good client, it's in your best interest to try and fulfill their requests and keep them happy because in my experience a happy client is a returning client, and it's way better to work with someone you know than someone you don't. 

 

To the OP, almost everyone has agreed with you that fixed price doesn't work for you. So I don't know why you think none of us have provided constructive feedback. Everyone has tried to explain how  and when fixed price can work effectively, and you have argued with everyone that you are right. I'm sorry our explanations have fallen on deaf ears. 

 

You definitely should avoid fixed price at all costs in the future. It does not suit you. No one is forcing you to work fixed price. So don't. 

 

If you do choose to work fixed price in the future, address specifically when source code will be delivered in your quote. Frankly that you say you've been doing this so long and you didn't think to address this with your client is a little puzzling. You see other developers on here say all the time how clear they make deliverables such as source code in their contracts. I would have called this a rookie mistake, not a complex situation that befell an experienced freelancer. 

Community Guru
Virginia F Member Since: Feb 15, 2016
65 of 106

Kim F wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. 

No. Although maybe you should avoid fixed-price contracts if they don't suit the project and the way you work.

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

There are failings with both types of projects, mainly because humans use them.  But it's a little tiresome having people say repeatedly that fixed-price projects should be avoided because that way of working doesn't suit them. They work well - very well - for a large number of us.


Right on, Kim. Except for a few gigs on Elance, I only work fixed price contracts, and they have worked very well for me. There is nothing to avoid, only to learn better how these kinds of contracts and milestones work.

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
66 of 106

Kim F wrote:

 

- I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

 

They've been rather effective for me for projects well over $300. I don't do hourly based projects at all.  

 

Same. I've done quite a few successful fixed price projects that ran to several thousands dollars--a few over $10,000, and one over $50,000.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
67 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

Kudakwashe Z wrote:

So as freelancers, we must avoid fixed-term contracts. They can work well with repeat clients. Fixed-term contracts offer more protection to the client than a freelancer.


Thank you for your finally a constructive reply:

I believe Fixed Price projects can be effective for straight forward deals less than 300$, 

First: You should have the project scope strongly determined, for example in this experience, I have read the requirements carefuly, the client asked me to build him a back end while the project was only a front end,after debates he could not force me to build it because requirements were already set.

 

Second: it can work better in these cases:

1- When you already have the product.

2- When you already know the client, (although when a client knows you he usualy prefers hourly deals because he knows your speed)

3- When you are hardly looking for a client and ready to risk some of your time to get a new client

 

Third : Do not rely on disputes, terms, platform system .. etc and do not go for arbitration (unless you feel too lucky LOL)


Fourth: As a freelancer you should invest on more than one platform, so when a platform does not work well for you, you can switch to good standing profile on another platform. You are a free-lancer after all not working for any platform.

Moderator
Valeria K Moderator Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
68 of 106

Hi Mostafa,

 

I'm sorry you had a negative experience with a contract being disputed and going into arbitration and I appreciate you sharing your feedback with the rest of the Community. Note, however, that posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication is against the Community Guidelines and that's why the links and screenshots you posted were removed. I encourage everybody on this thread to take a look at the Guidelines before posting on these boards further and make sure their replies are professional and respectful. 

 

I checked on your ticket and an confirm that the dispute and arbitration was handled in accordance with Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions. Please, refer to the section 6.8: "You agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitrator’s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon."

~ Valeria
Untitled
Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
69 of 106

Valeria K wrote:

Hi Mostafa,

 

I'm sorry you had a negative experience with a contract being disputed and going into arbitration and I appreciate you sharing your feedback with the rest of the Community. Note, however, that posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication is against the Community Guidelines and that's why the links and screenshots you posted were removed. I encourage everybody on this thread to take a look at the Guidelines before posting on these boards further and make sure their replies are professional and respectful. 

 

I checked on your ticket and an confirm that the dispute and arbitration was handled in accordance with Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions. Please, refer to the section 6.8: "You agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitrator’s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon."


As mentioned in 5.2 CANCELLATION BY CLIENT which is our case:

"If Client wants to cancel a contract with funds held in escrow, Client must click to close the contract."

"If Freelancer disputes the cancellation, Freelancer and Client will be offered Upwork Dispute Assistance"

Yes, I disputed the amount in escrow.

I went to AAA, because Upwork cannot force its terms and conditions on the client and ask him to either "Approve the work" or "Request changes". Instead, Upwork Dispute agent wanted to adopt the milestones/source-code story, which he could not justify by any of Upwork terms/documentation. I think this has also affected the dispute.

I lost AAA dispute about the amount in escrow, that happens, but, Can you tell me where in your terms, that after losing the escrow dispute I should refund your client from my pocket? Can you tell me where is that in any terms of a freelancing platform?

What if your arbitrator decided that a party should pay 1 million dollars because he found this resolution in the story he liked to adopt?
What is the value of Upwork terms then? You think you won't make anybody angry when hiding behind AAA?

I then suggest you remove your terms and let the arbitration lottery handle the dispute, that would make more sense.

Community Guru
Joan S Member Since: Mar 18, 2019
70 of 106

Well, Mostafa, where I come out on all this is that you should avoid fixed rate contracts but I will not.

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