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Why you should avoid Fixed Priced, And use multiple platforms.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
81 of 106

Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


That was milestone one and two.

Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
82 of 106

Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


It was the first two milestones, but he has to give back the $1400 plus now he's out an additional $291. lol

 

So by not just giving up the source code on milestone 2, he's now out $291. He's probably in the red on upwork and is working to pay off his debt. lol

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
83 of 106

Jennifer M wrote:

Hakan O wrote:

Mostafa,

Is $1,400 total amount you offered, or is it the sum of two milestones?


It was the first two milestones, but he has to give back the $1400 plus now he's out an additional $291. lol

 

So by not just giving up the source code on milestone 2, he's now out $291. He's probably in the red on upwork and is working to pay off his debt. lol


LOL, it is not as dark as that, I am very happy with my decisions, thanks for my experience in industry and in online freelancing, all these situations already had before, imagine giving source code for completed project and client cancels the contract, and upwork close eyes on terms and conditions sending me to a dummy AAA lottery arbiter, that would be the real loss.

I do not work for upwork, you break terms, don't ask me to follow terms, true freelancers do not work on one platform, world is much wider, I think the main loser is not me or the client it is the platform. and the only winner is AAA LOL

Community Guru
Maria T Member Since: Nov 12, 2015
84 of 106

No Mostafa, the only one who has lost here is you, and not just the money.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
85 of 106

Maria T wrote:

No Mostafa, the only one who has lost here is you, and not just the money.


I have actually won, I have learnt few new things about a platform, that I may have used in bigger deals in future, small experiences save us from big troubles, sharing it for the benefit of others.

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
86 of 106

Mostafa A wrote:

according to TOS when a freelancer deliver a project the client has only two choices "Approve and release" Or "Request Changes", and escrow is part of so called "Payment Protection" which Upwork only talked about.


And here is the problem..... you DID NOT deliver the project(milestone) and furthermore refused to supply it when asked in dispute. 

 

You say the client has only 2 choices, well so does the freelancer....

Supply the work and get paid, or dont!

 

 

It seems you have tried to use the milestone system to suit your own needs without realising that milestones actually form part of the contract. I dont think developers need to avoid fixed price at all, but they (along with any profession) need to be clear on how they work before entering into an agreement.

Ace Contributor
Mostafa A Member Since: Oct 20, 2016
87 of 106

Jonathan H wrote:


And here is the problem..... you DID NOT deliver the project(milestone) and furthermore refused to supply it when asked in dispute. 

 

You say the client has only 2 choices, well so does the freelancer....

Supply the work and get paid, or dont!

 


And here is the problem, you did not read the case. one more time, I am going to explain the milestone/source-code trip that was started by client and supported by Upwork Dispute:

 

You can think it two ways because of Upwork Ambigiouty:

1- If you want to consider the contract is the whole project (which is the real case as confirmed by dispute agent and upwork contract terms) , I have submitted work for the whole project, within its delivery time. and asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes" told him I am ready to work on any fixes.

2- If you want to consider milestones are "mini contracts" which is NOT TRUE, but that's the client's trick, Ok then I have submitted the work for milestones  2 & 3 on time. Asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes".


In both cases the client did not want to review the work, he put in a problem that cannot be solved , which is partially requesting a source code of second milestone only, why this is not possible:

1- Technically not possible on software, it is like you ask contractor to build a building and then saying I dont need the Upper floor give me only the ground floor. 

2- Denying a milestone requirements which has money in escrow, is that possible in upwork terms?

3- Taking source code of work that has not been paid or approved as functionality, this is anti-software.


I do not blame the client, I do blame the platform which did not apply terms and ask the client once to "Approve" or "Request changes" instead he supported his milestone/source-code story.


Please do not bring this point of milestones/source-code again, because I have explained enough. Give your question to Upwork to answer you if milestones breakdown convert initial contract to mini-contracts or if milestones can be cancelled or selected after been finished.

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
88 of 106

And here is the problem, you did not read the case. one more time, I am going to explain the milestone/source-code trick that was done by client and supported by Upwork Dispute:

 

Yes, i did read the case, and its all very obvious to everyone (except you) there was no 'trick' this is how the system works and always has. If you failed to read the terms thats on you.

 

You can think it two ways because of Upwork Ambigiouty:

1- If you want to consider the contract is the whole project (which is the real case as confirmed by dispute agent and upwork contract terms) , I have submitted work for the whole project, within its delivery time. and asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes" told him I am ready to work on any fixes.

2- If you want to consider milestones are "mini contracts" which is NOT TRUE, but that's the client's trick, Ok then I have submitted the work for milestones  2 & 3 on time. Asked the client to "Review the work" Or "Request Changes".

 

NO, you can think of it only 1 way, and thats the way that is clearly set out in the ToS. 

 

Milestones are points that you work to. YOU set your own milestones, so clearly you do not understand the system and got it wrong.

The client wants the code they have paid for, you already said you wont give it until you have been paid but thats NOT how it works, you supply the product (code) FIRST then get the money in the same way you did for milestone 1.

 

 

In both cases the client did not want to review the work, he put in a problem that cannot be solved , which is partially requesting a source code of second milestone only, why this is not possible:

 

Thats because you DIDNT GIVE HIM THE WORK (the code) - If you gave it to him then he would review it and release payment, that is how the system works, no ifs no buts.

 

 

1- Technically not possible on software, it is like you ask contractor to build a building and then saying I dont need the Upper floor give me only the ground floor. 

 

RUBBISH! - furthermore if i ask a contractor to build a house and THEY set 'first floor' as a milestone then i have every right to see that first floor before i approve further work on the upper floor. That way i can stop work when i realise the incompetent contractor has started building my house round instead of square like i asked.

 

 

2- Denying a milestone requirements which has money in escrow, is that possible in upwork terms?

 

YES, when YOU deny the client the work - like you did. You even said as much in dispute so it baffles me how you are suprised that it didnt go your way!

 

3- Taking source code of work that has not been paid or approved as functionality, this is anti-software.

 

You managed it just fine on the first milestone! If you dont want to provide work until the project is complete then dont setup multiple milestones, you set up just 1 for the whole project. But you already know that as the dispute team pointed it out several times to you.

 

I do not blame the client, I do blame the platform which did not apply terms and ask the client once to "Approve" or "Request changes" and supported his milestone/source code tricks.

 

There are no 'tricks' i'm afraid you only have yourself to blame as you dont know how to use the system properly and didnt set the fixed price job up in a suitable manner for the way you work (plenty of coders that manage just fine, so the 'this is only applicable to coders; argument is irrelevant.

 

Please do not bring this point of milestones/source-code again, because I have explained enough.

 

You can explain all you like, its irrelevant, thats not how it works. everyone has told you the same, including your dispute yet you still insist its not possible. Aside from the fact that many people manage it just fine, if its not possible DONT USE MULTIPLE MILESTONES! 

 

Give your question to Upwork to answer you if milestones breakdown convert initial contract to mini-contracts or if milestones can be cancelled or selected after been finished.

 

You can call them what you like, but milestone are a part of your contract, you did milestone 1 just fine, then refused to do milestone 2 the same way so the client refused to carry on with the project. If you carried on thats on you, the client was happy to complete the project but wanted what they had already paid for.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
89 of 106

Jonathan H wrote:

 

Yes, i did read the case, and its all very obvious to everyone (except you)


That is the single most baffling aspect of this mammoth thread...

Community Guru
Jonathan H Member Since: Jun 19, 2019
90 of 106

Petra R wrote:


That is the single most baffling aspect of this mammoth thread...


Its a shame, it's gotta sting loosing that money/time but if you dont learn from it and accept your own shortcomings then its just a matter of time before something similar happens again.

 

Everyone makes mistakes, and in this case the mistakes are both very clear and very costly (to both client and freelancer). I hope the OP spends a bit of time figuring out how the system works properly so he can avoid similar situations in the future on either fixed price or hourly contracts.

 

 

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