Your payment can be reversed even after project is closed by 5 star feedback

[kmunjal]

Hi All BEWARE!! oDesk will reverse the payment even if the project is successfully completed with 5 star feedback. My client sent me BONUS payment. But after that when she doesn't need that specific work, that I already started working on it contacted oDesk and oDesk reversed the payment without my consent. And when I asked oDesk about this, they said fixed price are not guaranteed , in Fixed price contracts payments can be reversed in even closed project with 5 star feedback. Now I am afraid I have completed 400 jobs here and 3400 hours logged, close to 350 jobs are fixed now if every client will go to oDesk and ask to reverse payment they will reverse it by saying fixed prices payments are not guaranteed?. I am here a reputed contractor by which oDesk earned thousands of dollars, they are doing this to me, Now please think what they will do to the newbie. Thanks

[lysis10]

Weird. Wonder if it was a stolen credit card.

[freddiedfre]

If thats the case I really fail to see why upwork should penalize a freelancer for that.  Also the lack of notifications when such changes happen to an accounts deeply bothers me. They let allowed the client on the platform and should take responsibility in case someting goes wrong. At least that is my expectation from the phrase "hourly protection". Btw been on upwork for 7 years and this the first time experience this type of situation.

[lysis10]

Yeah, it's weird for sure. I've had them make financial mistakes on my end, but in this case it seems that it wasn't a mistake. They have something like "payment protection except in cases of fraud" sort of terminology, so there is a gotcha in those terms.

Very frustrating. Seems like this is a rare case of freelancer doing things right and still got burned.

[freddiedfre]

Another intersting thing is I just checked the clients profile, and it shows the payment method to be verified.

I am almost giving up on this case though. Might just resort to doing less work on the platform, especially for new clients.

[dzadza]

Hi Fredrick,

this is very alarming - if I understand correctly -  you did everything by the book and there's no payment protection?
Can anyone from Upwork please confirm that?

[freddiedfre]

Yes that's the case so far. I am still waiting for upwork support to offer
additional assistance, but at the moment I am considering it a loss.

[aocumen]

Hi Fredrick,

We checked with the team that was reviewing your case earlier today. They confirmed that Payment Protection applies in your case and your payment will be processed shortly. Your ticket will also be updated with more details.

[freddiedfre]

Thank you, I have finally received the amount. Though am still a little dissapointed that a reversal can happen without a freelancer getting any notifications.

[lysis10]

Yay this is good to hear!

[kmunjal]

Well, again it's haunted me, now it's in the hourly contract as well, Upwork again reversed by payment without my consent of $200 by saying I charged a high hourly rate, I mean seriously?

I and my client decided on an hourly rate depending upon the creativity of the design she explained, the client sent me a message she absolutely loved my design and approved the work, now all of a sudden if the client went dishonest and Upwork was not able to charge the client, it means Upwork will reverse the money from my account without my consent?

I mean where is the hourly protection here now? I am getting burned from everywhere sometimes clients file chargeback after receiving the work at a fixed price, so I stopped doing fixed price thinking hourly is safe, but voila, even hourly also is not protected, I mean for what I am paying to upwork so much?

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Kunal,

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you've had. I checked your account and I can see that you're already communicating with our team on your ticket with the number 33182424. Rest assured, our team will update your ticket as soon as possible and will assist you further. Thank you.

[kmunjal]

Hi Goran

Thanks for your reply. I am shocked to see how upwork can do anything they want without even consulting with freelancers, it's just so disappointing. Please let me know and let the community know if hourly payments are also not covered/protected by Upwork?

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote:

Well, again it's haunted me, now it's in the hourly contract as well, Upwork again reversed by payment without my consent of $200 by saying I charged a high hourly rate, I mean seriously?

---

Yes, seriously. You need to read the terms of the hourly protection. It does not cover you at an hourly rate that exceeds your usual rate or your profile rate, whatever is lower.  

An hourly rate of $500 is CLEARLY dodgy as hell. With all due respect, the client who would REALLY pay you $500 an hour hasn't been born yet (and never will be born) when the highest hourly rate you've ever been paid is 5% of that and the vast majority of your hours were at $5.11...

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Kunal M wrote:

...all of a sudden if the client went dishonest and Upwork was not able to charge the client, it means Upwork will reverse the money from my account without my consent?

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There never was any money. Your client didn't pay you.

[kmunjal]

Could you please send me where it is written that Upwork covers only profile link hourly rate?

And I have clients who paid me $500 per hour as well like the creative idea has no limit, I don't know you are from which field, but ideas can come in 10 mins or even in 10 days, so does that mean the client will pay only for 10 mins of time?

Where is freelancer safe here? I have already lost thousands of dollars from fixed price chargebacks as well where Upwork didn't help me, now in hourly also you can also get ur payment reversed

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote:

Could you please send me where it is written that Upwork covers only profile link hourly rate?

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"The maximum rate per hour protected by Upwork to Freelancer under the Hourly Payment Protection for Freelancers is the lesser of: (i) the rate provided in the Hourly Contract terms; (ii) the usual hourly rate billed by Freelancer on the Site across all Clients; and (iii) the going rate for the same skills on the Site in Freelancer's area (such determination to be made in Upwork's sole discretion)."

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Kunal M wrote:

now in hourly also you can also get ur payment reversed

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There was nothing to reverse. There was no payment.

The client never paid.

Kunal M wrote:

so if my hourly rate is also not $50 per hour, how come Upwork reversed $200 out of $250?

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They were being kind to you or didn't check your REAL hourly rate. Don't expect them to repeat that mistake now you drew their attention to it.

So anyway, you worked for an hour and were paid for an hour out of Upwork's own pocket. What are you complaining about?

[justyourtype]

Hi, has Upwork confirmed they can indeed REVERSE payment on hourly work and project-priced work?

That would be 100% unacceptable.

If it's due to non-collection from the client on their part, that's their cost of doing business.

Thanks in advance,

Sue

[prestonhunter]

re: “If it's due to non-collection from the client on their part, that's their cost of doing business.”

But if you are the freelancer, it could be YOUR cost of doing business, if you end up not getting paid.

If this is a concern, then a real solution is to work using hourly contracts while following the simple Payment Protection rules.

That is what I do for nearly all my work.

If there is a “non-collection of payment” situation, then Upwork pays me out of their own pocket. Like you suggested they should do. But I know Upwork doesn’t do that for fixed-price and manual time.

This is a tremendous and unusual thing that Upwork does. You are not going to find other platforms paying you out of their own pocket for non-collected payment from a client.

So… yes… frustration about fraudulent payments resulting in freelancers not getting paid for fixed-price and manually-logged work is understandable. But at least there is a real alternative.

[kmunjal]

@Preston, this is the hourly contract we are talking about here, everything was properly tracked with the memo, the reversal reason upwork gave me that I charged a high rate to the client because my profile says I charged $50 per hour, but my client and I decided as it a creative idea job, so we decided on $250 per hour which client agreed, I have proofs of everything. 

[prestonhunter]

re: “gave me that I charged a high rate to the client because my profile says I charged $50 per hour, but my client and I decided as it a creative idea job, so we decided on $250 per hour which client agreed, I have proofs of everything.”

Yes. What you did disqualified you from being covered by Upwork Payment Protection.

This is a rule we don’t talk about as often, but it is a real written rule that has been in place for a LONG time.

Sorry.

Read:

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Hourly-payment-protection-limits/td-p/625275

"The maximum rate per hour protected by Upwork to Freelancer under the Hourly Payment Protection for Freelancers is the lesser of: (i) the rate provided in the Hourly Contract terms; (ii) the usual hourly rate billed by Freelancer on the Site across all Clients; and (iii) the going rate for the same skills on the Site in Freelancer's area (such determination to be made in Upwork's sole discretion). The maximum amount of coverage under the Hourly Payment Protection for Freelancers for the life of a relationship between the same Client and Freelancer is $2,500 or 50 hours logged in Work Diary, whichever is less."

[petra_r]

Kunal M wrote:

... because my profile says I charged $50 per hour.

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You don't charge $50 an hour either, that's just what you wrote on your profile... it's not what you are really working hourly contracts at.

[kmunjal]

so if my hourly rate is also not $50 per hour, how come Upwork reversed $200 out of $250?

[prestonhunter]

re: “so if my hourly rate is also not $50 per hour, how come Upwork reversed $200 out of $250?”

Upwork was being generous.

If you want to correct this then just say so and there are people here who will be willing to ask Upwork moderators to reduce that $50 payment so that it matches the typical hourly rate you receive.

[kmunjal]

so if I just change my hourly rate in my profile to $500 then my hourly price will become the same?

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote: so if I just change my hourly rate in my profile to $500 then my hourly price will become the same?

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That would look remarkable like attempted fraud.

Anyway, that scam wouldn't work because the maximum they will cover 
"is the lesser of: (i) the rate provided in the Hourly Contract terms; (ii) the usual hourly rate billed by Freelancer on the Site across all Clients"

[prestonhunter]

re: “so if I just change my hourly rate in my profile to $500 then my hourly price will become the same?”

You are allowed to change your posted hourly rate to $500.

But that still would not mean that your work would be covered by Upwork Payment Protection at that rate.

Upwork has clearly written guidelines about this which we already posted here in the thread.

[kmunjal]

And I don't understand its client and freelancer mutual agreement of a price, what Upwork does and charges 20% commission for to get safety for both of client as well as a freelancer. How can upwork decide the work I did is for a particular amount?

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote:

How can upwork decide the work I did is for a particular amount?

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They don't unless someone is trying to get THEM to pay at an artificially and possibly fraudulently high rate out of Upwork's own pocket...

[kmunjal]

Why does someone just want to get only 1 hour then? and that is only for $250? I mean if someone wants to do fraud where they can do it for thousands of dollars, don't you think Upwork should monitor this kind of case manually and case by a case basis?

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote:

 I mean if someone wants to do fraud where they can do it for thousands of dollars?

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Let's stop beating around the bush:

Clients don't REALLY hire freelancers at 10 to 100 times their normal rate. It simply doesn't happen. Don't even try to pretend that it does. 

Those "weird" contracts at artificially inflated hourly rates are INVARIABLY one of two things:

1) A client wanting to pay fixed rate and the freelancer wanting to do hourly for protection, so the client sets the contract up at the inflated hourly rate that is the fixed rate price they want to pay and the freelancer then logs one hour at that rate. (and not logging the rest of the time they worked). Such contracts are usually pretty obvious (like your $500 one) as being exactly that and not true hourly contracts.

or

2) Client and freelancer trying to scam Upwork by playing on the hourly protection

I suspect yours was scenario 1), or that scenario 2) couldn't be proven, which is why you still have an Upwork account and were paid anything at all.

I'd suggest you quit while that is still the case.

[kmunjal]

So tell me how will you get payment from the client then, as fixed price also can be disputed/chargeback, I mean what is freelancer can do to be 100% safe?

I mean if your ideas are worth more than your hourly rate does that mean you are forced to sell ur idea at your profile hourly rate only if not how will you track that much amount of hours?

[prestonhunter]

re: “I mean if your ideas are worth more than your hourly rate does that mean you are forced to sell ur idea at your profile hourly rate only if not how will you track that much amount of hours?”

Upwork is not going to modify its policies to cover this type of situation.

If your ideas are worth more than your hourly rate, then you are indeed allowed to charge clients higher rates. This IS allowed. And you will rarely have a problem with doing so, because the clients who hire you are benefiting from those ideas. And those clients are going to make sure that they pay you. They don’t want to do anything that jeopardizes their access to your creative ideas.

But Upwork itself can not implement payment protection mechanisms that properly protect your creative idea time, because Upwork is limited by being source code and simple policies implemented by simple human workers.

[kmunjal]

But can upwork at least give a popup when freelancer charging high hourly amount at the time of accepting the contract? that only that much amount is covered in a particular contract? so they can be alerted before going into this type of trouble?

[petra_r]

Kunal M wrote:

so they can be alerted before going into this type of trouble?aa

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Frankly I think you are very lucky you were paid anything at all and still have an Upwork account...

[kmunjal]

@sue B What troubles me most is Upwork mentioned in the email they sent to me that they will reverse the payment and in my transaction history they won't mention reversal, instead, they will mention refund, I have no idea why is that? and the reason they gave me of reversal is that I charged a high hourly rate to the client, isn't this unbelievable? I and the client decided on an hourly rate which we mutually agreed on, Did the client didn't know how much she is getting charged?, did the client complain anything to Upwork for the excessive charge? I have even screenshots where the client check-in my screenshot of the work diary and gave me feedback on how she loved the idea I was working on, and even messages of her, how much she loved the final logo design i did for her.

Where is the hourly protection Upwork always advertised on all the platforms?

[prestonhunter]

re: “Where is the hourly protection Upwork always advertised on all the platforms?”

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068288-Hourly-Protection

[martina_plaschka]

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Kunal M wrote:

@sue B What troubles me most is Upwork mentioned in the email they sent to me that they will reverse the payment and in my transaction history they won't mention reversal, instead, they will mention refund, I have no idea why is that? and the reason they gave me of reversal is that I charged a high hourly rate to the client, isn't this unbelievable? I and the client decided on an hourly rate which we mutually agreed on, Did the client didn't know how much she is getting charged?, did the client complain anything to Upwork for the excessive charge? I have even screenshots where the client check-in my screenshot of the work diary and gave me feedback on how she loved the idea I was working on, and even messages of her, how much she loved the final logo design i did for her.

Where is the hourly protection Upwork always advertised on all the platforms?

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If the client liked your work so much, they shouldn't have used a fraudulent credit card and all of this wouldn't have happened. 

[colettelewis]

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Martina P wrote:

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Kunal M wrote:

@sue B What troubles me most is Upwork mentioned in the email they sent to me that they will reverse the payment and in my transaction history they won't mention reversal, instead, they will mention refund, I have no idea why is that? and the reason they gave me of reversal is that I charged a high hourly rate to the client, isn't this unbelievable? I and the client decided on an hourly rate which we mutually agreed on, Did the client didn't know how much she is getting charged?, did the client complain anything to Upwork for the excessive charge? I have even screenshots where the client check-in my screenshot of the work diary and gave me feedback on how she loved the idea I was working on, and even messages of her, how much she loved the final logo design i did for her.

Where is the hourly protection Upwork always advertised on all the platforms?

---

If the client liked your work so much, they shouldn't have used a fraudulent credit card and all of this wouldn't have happened. 

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______________________________________________

I don't think Kunal should be blamed for doing work in good faith for a client,  who shouldn't be on Upwork; and how could he have known that the client was using a fraudulent card?

[petra_r]

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Nichola L wrote:

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Martina P wrote:

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If the client liked your work so much, they shouldn't have used a fraudulent credit card and all of this wouldn't have happened. 

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______________________________________________

I don't think Kunal should be blamed for doing work in good faith for a client,  who shouldn't be on Upwork; and how could he have known that the client was using a fraudulent card?

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He knows as well as anyone looking at his profile knows for absolutely 100% certain that it wasn't a genuine $250 an hour contract any more than his $500 an hour contract was really one hour's work for $500 an hour. There is no such thing as "good faith" in such a scenario. It's at best sharp practice in order to obtain something the contract wouldn't usually provide (doing a fixed rate contract as hourly to get protection). 

The client likely wasn't using a fraudulent card either, they simply didn't pay / their payment method repeatedly declined. 

[kmunjal]

Instead of just attacking me like that, I want to point out there are some loopholes clients can misuse that Upwork can fix, and as far as my profile is concerned, you can check I have several clients who paid me high hourly price as well, its upwork duty to verify the card, etc, if the client can block payment like that, so they can block payment which is the lesser amount as well, so just because the hourly price is higher it means it's okay not to pay to freelancer?

[petra_r]

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Kunal M wrote:

as far as my profile is concerned, you can check I have several clients who paid me high hourly price as well

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But not for hourly contracts.... those were "I'll charge you $XXX to do that job but let's do it as one hour at $XXX" - Then you tracked one hour and did the rest of the work without tracking. In other words; you used a fake hourly rate. Please stop pretending otherwise. It's so obvious.

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Kunal M wrote:

so just because the hourly price is higher it means it's okay not to pay to freelancer?

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No, it isn't okay from the client, but it isn't okay of you to expect Upwork to cover your fake hourly rate. Your hourly rate wasn't REALLY higher. It was a stunt to do fixed rate work within an hourly contract with an artificially inflated rate.

The villain here is the client, but all your posts are raging against Upwork, not your client.