content writing

899cdaa1 · ‎01-22-2021

I want to know that is it poosible to get first client without any portfolio in starting.?

prestonhunter · ‎01-22-2021

Umm... Why would you try to get a writing job without presenting a writing portfolio? That makes no sense.

7bb3a47b · ‎01-30-2021

Hi Preston

without completing job on upwork, can I upload portifolio on my profile?

If possible, how can I do that?

When I try to upload portifolio, it asked me to put job url

Thank you

prestonhunter · ‎01-30-2021

re: "without completing job on Upwork, can I upload portifolio on my profile?"

Yes.

re: "If possible, how can I do that?"

Just do it.

re: "When I try to upload portifolio, it asked me to put job url"

You don't need to have a job URL.

salima-noorani · ‎01-27-2021

Syed D wrote:
I want to know that is it poosible to get first client without any portfolio in starting.?

I got my first writing assignment without a portfolio. The job post asked for a sample scenario. I wrote it and it got accepted. They offered me a contract. There are jobs that require potential candidates to write 100-200 words on a given topic and submit it with their proposals. If you are not selected you can refine the samples you wrote and add them to your portfolio.

It is strongly advisable to have a portfolio before submitting proposals. You can create your own samples and add them to your portfolio.

You need to understand that we compete with people whose native language is English. So it is not going to be easy. There are jobs that specifically mention that the content should have simple sentences that are easy to understand because their target audiences have English as their second language. You can try applying for those.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-27-2021

Salima N wrote:
There are jobs that require potential candidates to write 100-200 words on a given topic and submit it with their proposals.

It's against Upwork's terms of service for clients to ask candidates for free work. If you see job posts like this, you should use the "flag as inappropriate" link to report this client. I'm glad that it worked out for you this time, but more frequently, clients will just steal your work and not hire anyone.

salima-noorani · ‎01-27-2021

Christine A wrote:
Salima N wrote:
There are jobs that require potential candidates to write 100-200 words on a given topic and submit it with their proposals.
It's against Upwork's terms of service for clients to ask candidates for free work. If you see job posts like this, you should use the "flag as inappropriate" link to report this client. I'm glad that it worked out for you this time, but more frequently, clients will just steal your work and not hire anyone.

I personally think a 100 - 200 words sample is a reasonable demand to assess the writing competence of a content writer. Additionally, before I submit proposals I carefully look at clients' history and read all the reviews.

I have done this once or twice after that and won an interview but someone else got hired. But I receive 10 connects for responding to an interview for a job that cost me 2 connects.

petra_r · ‎01-27-2021

Salima N wrote:
I personally think a 100 - 200 words sample is a reasonable demand.

It doesn't matter whether you personally think so. It is a violation of the terms of service.

Salima N wrote: I have done this once or twice after that and won an interview but someone else got hired. But I receive 10 connects for responding to an interview for a job that cost me 2 connects.

It's still not allowed. Also not sure 8 connects adequately compensates for the work involved even if it wasn't a violation of the terms of service.

salima-noorani · ‎01-27-2021

Petra R wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you personally think so. It is a violation of the terms of service.
It's still not allowed. Also not sure 8 connects adequately compensates for the work involved even if it wasn't a violation of the terms of service.

I did not say that I think it is ok for the client to ask for free work. I meant the client genuinely asked a 100-200 words sample to assess the competence of a content writer on a given topic and I personally think it is a reasonable demand. The fact that someone else got hired means the client was genuine.

And 8 connects are a bonus for me, not compensation for the effort I put while submitting my proposals.

petra_r · ‎01-27-2021

Salima N wrote:
I did not say that I think it is ok for the client to ask for free work. I meant the client genuinely asked a 100-200 words sample to assess the competence of a content writer on a given topic

That is asking for free work and not allowed.

Salima N wrote:

The fact that someone else got hired means the client was genuine.

Entirely irrelevant.

Salima N wrote:
Petra R wrote:
I personally think it is a reasonable demand.

If the client wants custom samples, the client is free to set up trial-contracts and pay for them. Whether you personally think it is reasonable or not makes no difference. Your "personal thinking" doesn't define or alter Upwork's terms of service.

I am not sure which part of "free work" and "violation of the terms of service" is quite so difficut to grasp?

Salima N wrote:
And I decide whether they are asking for free work or demanding a genuine sample.

Seriously? Client asking for any custome sample = Free work. Not for you to decide. You don't define the terms of service. You understand them and follow them.

salima-noorani · ‎01-28-2021

Petra R wrote:
I am not sure which part of "free work" and "violation of the terms of service" is quite so difficut to grasp?
Seriously? Client asking for any custome sample = Free work. Not for you to decide. You don't define the terms of service. You understand them and follow them.

Got it. Thank you, Petra for your time and effort.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-27-2021

Salima N wrote:
I personally think a 100 - 200 words sample is a reasonable demand to assess the writing competence of a content writer.

Most of us have portfolios that help clients to assess our competence - that's what portfolios are for.

So, getting back to the OP's question... unless you want to spend hours creating free samples every time you make a job proposal - with very little chance of ever getting paid for your efforts - then it would be best to have a portfolio. Good clients don't demand free work, and wouldn't you rather work for good clients?

salima-noorani · ‎01-27-2021

Christine A wrote:
Most of us have portfolios that help clients to assess our competence - that's what portfolios are for.

So, getting back to the OP's question... unless you want to spend hours creating free samples every time you make a job proposal - with very little chance of ever getting paid for your efforts - then it would be best to have a portfolio. Good clients don't demand free work, and wouldn't you rather work for good clients?

I have already said that to the OP that it is strongly advisable to have a portfolio before submitting proposals and then shared my experience. And the samples we create for the client can become part of our portfolio.

I never said I spend hours creating free samples. I would not write a 1000 words sample for anyone. it is just 100-200 words and it doesn't take hours. So far I have responded 3 times to this thread and I have written more than 200 words. And I am still writing.

I carefully screen the clients before creating samples for them. It does not happen very often. And I decide whether they are asking for free work or demanding a genuine sample.

Are you saying any kind of sample even if it is small is considered free work?

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-27-2021

Salima N wrote:
Are you saying any kind of sample even if it is small is considered free work?

Um, yes. If the client asks for a sample and doesn't pay you for it, then how is it NOT free work? Even if one person gets hired, it means that everyone else who applied didn't get paid for their "sample". If there are 50 applicants and they spend even 15 minutes each creating a sample, then the client receives 12.5 hours of unpaid labour.

Professional freelancers know the value of their time and don't just give it away.

salima-noorani · ‎01-27-2021

Christine A wrote:

Um, yes. If the client asks for a sample and doesn't pay you for it, then how is it NOT free work? Even if one person gets hired, it means that everyone else who applied didn't get paid for their "sample". If there are 50 applicants and they spend even 15 minutes each creating a sample, then the client receives 12.5 hours of unpaid labour.

Professional freelancers know the value of their time and don't just give it away.

I did some research on the forum and found this post by Stephen B from 2015 He said

"Possibly. Maybe not. I occasionally do a short sample (200 words max) of editing if asked for. If they ask for more I just send them the 200 anyway, as that's more than enough for them to see my style. I don't know how you know it's a waste of time - I do believe I've landed jobs on the strength of a very short sample.

Aside from requested samples, I would quite often send an unsolicited short sample from a section of text taken from an attachment or a website, and I have landed a few quite large jobs above equally good candidates where I have been told by the client that they based the decision on my sample. So ten hours' work for ten minutes of pre-work (and five for the cover letter)?

I think in a lot of cases, the client may not realise the level of editing that's possible, and why it's worth paying extra for quality. The very short sample alerts them to this."

Here is the link to the thread.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Free-samples/m-p/62238/highlight/true#M23293

There clearly exists a difference of opinion here.

I get that now whether short or long, an unpaid sample is free work. And it is against the TOS for the client to ask for free work. But TOS doesn't prevent a freelancer from submitting reasonable short samples if they think it will increase their chances of getting hired.

I am not sure if the OP got his query resolved, but I got an issue resolved which I never thought existed. Thank you Christine for pointing that out. I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to explain the whole thing to me as clearly as possible.

kinector · ‎01-31-2021

Salima, I'm just trying to summarize things so that people reading this get what the rules are.

It is perfectly fine for a freelancer to give freebies, work for free as much as they like, and try to win a project. Big or small, it doesn't really matter, freelancers are in different situations (e.g. some are dying to get the first gig, some need to prove their skill set, some haven't figured out any better sales process, and so on). Your time, your choice.

But it is not OK for a client to request free work. It is perfectly fine, though, to ask a big job to be done as a test project for 5 bucks. It's up to the freelancer to consider if that deal is reasonable and worth going for.

petra_r · ‎01-31-2021

Mikko R wrote:
It is perfectly fine for a freelancer to give freebies, work for free as much as they like, and try to win a project. Big or small, it doesn't really matter,

Whilst it is not a violation of the terms of service, it isn't "perfectly fine"

I assume I don't have to explain why it isn't "perfectly fine"? Because it is pretty obvious , or at least it should be.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-31-2021

Petra R wrote:
Mikko R wrote:
It is perfectly fine for a freelancer to give freebies, work for free as much as they like, and try to win a project. Big or small, it doesn't really matter,
Whilst it is not a violation of the terms of service, it isn't "perfectly fine"

I assume I don't have to explain why it isn't "perfectly fine"? Because it is pretty obvious , or at least it should be.

I completely agree. I don't think that free samples, or even cheap, paid "tests", are the best way to get hired (or for clients to find the best freelancer for a project). Better to have a portfolio into which you've put lots of time and effort - and which you know is your best work - instead of dashing off quick, poorly thought-out samples. It also misleads clients into thinking that it's quick and easy for us to come up with ideas, so why would they pay a decent rate for somebody to put actual thought into their project?

salima-noorani · ‎02-01-2021

Petra R wrote:

Whilst it is not a violation of the terms of service, it isn't "perfectly fine"

I assume I don't have to explain why it isn't "perfectly fine"? Because it is pretty obvious , or at least it should be.

I was going through some old threads on free work and came across a few of your comments on free work.

"There is nothing in the terms of service which forbids a freelancer to agree to give a free sample / test / whatever.

I have made many 10s of thousands of Dollars from a contract which included an unpaid testing phase (NOT a work sample) and which was arranged by an Upwork Recruiter (not a talent whatsit) for an Enterprise client." (link: here )

You did make a distinction between the unpaid testing phase and the Unpaid work sample. What constitutes an unpaid testing phase?

Your another comment

"Asking for free samples is a violation of Upwork's terms of service.

Flag as "asking for free work"

There is a time and a place for investing some time to win a really juicy contract (as in: I would think about it for a contract worth several thousand dollars) but in general, as a rule of thumb, if a client wants a sample they can set up a sample contract and jolly well pay for it" (link: here)

You did make an exception here. You wouldn't mind creating a sample if the contract is worth thousands of dollars. Consider a freelancer like me in whose country one dollar is equal to Rs160. So if the whole contract is worth $20 dollar it would be Rs 3200. So is that make it okay for me to create a small sample for these jobs.

There has been a lot of debate about free work here. I have read many threads. There exist a difference of opinion among professionals on whether it is fine or not fine for freelancers to provide free samples. Some reject it outright and others say it depends on the circumstances. However, the matter has not been settled.

petra_r · ‎02-01-2021

Salima N wrote:
You did make a distinction between the unpaid testing phase and the Unpaid work sample. What constitutes an unpaid testing phase?

Aptitude test, English language test, logical thinking tests and so on.

That contract ended up well in excess of $100k

Not sure what the point of that little stalking exercise was. Basically I consistently said that it's not forbidden, but that doesn't make it a great idea in most cases.

Salima N wrote:
You did make an exception here. You wouldn't mind creating a sample if the contract is worth thousands of dollars. Consider a freelancer like me in whose country one dollar is equal to Rs160. So if the whole contract is worth $20 dollar it would be Rs 3200. So is that make it okay for me to create a small sample for these jobs.

You can't possibly be serious. That isn't even remotely comparable.

Throwing free work at clients unasked for cheap $20 contracts cheapens your work, trains clients to expect it, directly harms other freelancers, directly harms the marketplace as a whole and makes you look like you don't respect or value your work or your time.

salima-noorani · ‎02-01-2021

Petra R wrote:

Not sure what the point of that little stalking exercise was. Basically I consistently said that it's not forbidden, but that doesn't make it a great idea in most cases.

With due respect, I was not stalking you. and It was not my intention to prove that you have been inconsistent. I have high regards for you because I have seen you providing solutions to new freelancers. You even make an effort to add screenshots to make things clear.

All the new freelancers are advised to read the forum to get a better understanding of how things work here. I was just trying to read more about the free work when I came across your posts and since you have been generous with your time to answer my queries that is why I asked the questions directly with reference.

I am genuinely trying to understand. Maybe there is something wrong with the way I write that gives you the wrong vibes. I apologize.

petra_r · ‎02-01-2021

Salima N wrote: I am genuinely trying to understand. Maybe there is something wrong with the way I write that gives you the wrong vibes. I apologize.

There is nothing wrong with the way you write. Maybe I also need to just wind my neck back in 🙂

Ultimately everyone needs to decide for themselves. As we both know, it is not forbidden, it just leads to so much exploitation when clients are trained to expect this that it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Incidentally, I don't do "paid tests" either.

feed_my_eyes · ‎02-01-2021

Salima N wrote:

There has been a lot of debate about free work here. I have read many threads. There exist a difference of opinion among professionals on whether it is fine or not fine for freelancers to provide free samples. Some reject it outright and others say it depends on the circumstances. However, the matter has not been settled.

There isn't much of a debate among actual professionals, only among newbie freelancers who are so desperate for work that they're willing to jump through hoops in order to get it. Dishonest clients know this and exploit the situation - why do you think it's against Upwork's terms of service?

Every time you accommodate clients like this instead of reporting them, you're making life more difficult for other freelancers. Instead of searching for ways to argue against Petra, maybe you should read all of the forum posts in which freelancers are upset because they provided samples, then the client simply stole them and didn't hire anyone.

salima-noorani · ‎02-01-2021

Christine A wrote:
Instead of searching for ways to argue against Petra, maybe you should read all of the forum posts in which freelancers are upset because they provided samples, then the client simply stole them and didn't hire anyone.

I already apologized to Petra. I was not trying to argue against her. It was my genuine attempt to understand an issue. I have read those threads you are referring to.

I apologize for upsetting you.

899cdaa1 · ‎01-27-2021

Can we get our first writing task with out portfolio?

kam_andru · ‎01-27-2021

Hi Syed,

There are chances, but fewer, because usually the first thing that the clients will be looking is into our profiles, experiences, and previous works, but if you lucky and the client is not a usual thinker, you will definitely get a job.

By the way, it looks like your profile is set to private, you may do it by mistake or due to inactivity the Upwork does, make sure it is public to be seen for everyone.

I hope this is helpful.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-27-2021

You already asked that question: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/content-writing/m-p/862363