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vinod111
Community Member

difficult to understand client is female or male

Hello,

This might sound silly but I guess many freelancers have faced this. some times when I approach a new client I find it difficult to identify the client is male or female. So during chatting with client first time on message many times, I will be unknown that the person is male or female. I know we can identify this by the name and profile pic but not the all-time client set their own profile pic and it might be logo or couples photo. In the case of name, Not all names are familiar with us to identify its male or female. We are familiar with common names like John, Smith, Peter, Lynda, etc but not with all the names.

 

So here I suggest to Upwork that they should display Mr/Ms in front of client name which will help a lot to avoid awkward impression on the client while approaching the client. 

 

If someone knows any other way to find this out then please share your thoughts.

 

Thanks,

Vinod

20 REPLIES 20
petra_r
Community Member


Vinod M wrote:

 

This might sound silly but I guess many freelancers have faced this. some times when I approach a new client I find it difficult to identify the client is male or female. So during chatting with client first time on message many times, I will be unknown that the person is male or female.


Why in the world would it matter?

 


Vinod M wrote:

... will help a lot to avoid awkward impression on the client while approaching the client. 


What "awkward impression?" - How would you approach a client any differently if you knew the gender?

 

vinod111
Community Member

Hello Petra,

Thank you for your reply. Let's take your example to understand the situation, Consider that your profile has some kind of logo than your own pic. If in the project where the need of a couple of freelancers and If I have to introduce them with the client then it's difficult to use he/she word in the message while talking about the client in the group chat. Hope it makes sense. 

petra_r
Community Member


Vinod M wrote:

Hello Petra,

 Consider that your profile has some kind of logo than your own pic. If in the project where the need of a couple of freelancers and If I have to introduce them with the client then it's difficult to use he/she word in the message while talking about the client in the group chat. Hope it makes sense. 


If you really ever need to know, you could consider asking? Or googling the name?

In all honesty, in all my years here I have never needed this and can't see how I ever would.

 


Vinod M wrote:

Hello Petra,

Thank you for your reply. Let's take your example to understand the situation, Consider that your profile has some kind of logo than your own pic. If in the project where the need of a couple of freelancers and If I have to introduce them with the client then it's difficult to use he/she word in the message while talking about the client in the group chat. Hope it makes sense. 


Just use the name, then. 


Martina P wrote:

Vinod M wrote:

Hello Petra,

Thank you for your reply. Let's take your example to understand the situation, Consider that your profile has some kind of logo than your own pic. If in the project where the need of a couple of freelancers and If I have to introduce them with the client then it's difficult to use he/she word in the message while talking about the client in the group chat. Hope it makes sense. 


Just use the name, then. 


 

Yes, we can use a name or call "client" but doing this repeatedly in the 3-4 sentence is not a good practice I guess. Usually, we replace it with he/she in further sentences. Anyways Upwork may consider this cause it's not a big change to do for them.

You can always use 'they' if you are unsure of the gender. That's not awkward at all.

What's awkward is having Ms. Pat or Mr. Pat being written on the profiles. Too formal and totally not required.

 

ETA: Also, binary segregation such as Mr and Ms would be quite inappropriate too, considering that we live in a world where the gender boundaries are blurring.


Prachi T wrote:

You can always use 'they' if you are unsure of the gender. That's not awkward at all.

This.

petra_r
Community Member


Vinod M wrote:

Anyways Upwork may consider this cause it's not a big change to do for them.

I would bet a week's wine on it that they won't.

Soon a mod will pop along with "Thank you for your feedback, I will make sure to share it with the team!"

Then it will get shared with the team and the team will go "Hell, no."

 

business-commerce-suggestions_box-suggestion-bin-trash-rubbish-jman122_low

 

vinod111
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Vinod M wrote:

Anyways Upwork may consider this cause it's not a big change to do for them.

I would bet a week's wine on it that they won't.

Soon a mod will pop along with "Thank you for your feedback, I will make sure to share it with the team!"

Then it will get shared with the team and the team will go "Hell, no."

 

business-commerce-suggestions_box-suggestion-bin-trash-rubbish-jman122_low

 


We never know what happens, I think they will at least discuss this.

 

eg.png

[removed/revised by poster]

Vinod,

 

You are not strengthening your case by censoring the point of a cartoon that is about the differential treatment of men and women in business.

https://punch.photoshelter.com/image/I0000eHEXGJ_wImQ

To be fair I don't think this post is about sexism or inequality. I take it on face value that it's about using the proper pronoun. I also think there are different levels of formality and expectations for addressing people within differing cultures and locations.

 

For me I would simply use their name or "they/client" if appropriate to skirt this issue. Of course I am coming at this as an American on the West Coast. Head to the East Coast and you'll see even newspapers like the NYT say in articles, "according to Ms. Weiss..." or "Mr. Stevens then indicated...". Other countries as well have a more formal approach when speaking to or about people they don't know, people who are older, people who are in more senior positions, etc. 

 

So a question might be whether a site like Upwork should try and accommodate these different cultural or location based differences or should we come together with a homogenized approach that defines an Upwork culture. The answer is probably to accommodate what reasonably can given this is a global platform but you cannot be all things to all people and so lines need to be drawn. For me, indicating gender is a bridge too far. My opinion is that adding a "Mr" or "Ms", etc. would not be received well by the majority (as defined by over 50% of the people). Certainly any sort of gender designation (i.e. male/female) should be a complete non-starter. So this means that Upwork is going to be a less formal platform but of course that doens't require anyone to operate at a certain level of formality in their own writing. I grant you for the gender uncertain issue that the OP is asking about this may not help, so I'd say you'll have to work around that as best as you can for what I imagine are the minority of cases. 

It's an interesting discussion, and one that we haven't discussed before.

 

But Upwork isn't going to change anything for this.

 

The ways to handle this have been aptly described by previous thread participants.

 

The "elephant in the room" - what everybody is being too polite to say aloud - is that there IS a solution to this, and that would be to require all clients to submit to proctored blood tests at medical testing centers so that their government-issued photo ID can be presented along with a blood sample and they can be positively Gender-Verified.

 

Otherwise, this is a non-issue.

A Modest Proposal indeed, Preston!


Preston H wrote:

 

The "elephant in the room" - what everybody is being too polite to say aloud - is that there IS a solution to this, and that would be to require all clients to submit to proctored blood tests at medical testing centers so that their government-issued photo ID can be presented along with a blood sample and they can be positively Gender-Verified.


Oh, dear.


Douglas Michael M wrote:

Preston H wrote:

 

The "elephant in the room" - what everybody is being too polite to say aloud - is that there IS a solution to this, and that would be to require all clients to submit to proctored blood tests at medical testing centers so that their government-issued photo ID can be presented along with a blood sample and they can be positively Gender-Verified.


Oh, dear.


Mann, I spend too much time on reddit. I actually understand what this "oh dear" means and thought it myself when I read this.

Scott beat me to it ... This is far more a cultural issue than many realize.  As a West Coast (laid back and less formal) person, I sometimes bite my tongue to not inadvertently offend a Southerner or be overly friendly toward a native East Coaster. 

 

When writing either proposals or general messaging it helps to use terms like "your" - i.e. your target market; your demographics, your clients' products,  etc.  

 

Frankly, I think the OP's question reflects a simpatico attitude and a sincere desire to not offend people. 


Wendy C wrote:

 

Frankly, I think the OP's question reflects a simpatico attitude and a sincere desire to not offend people. 


No doubt about it. At all.

But it won't happen.

 

kfarnell
Community Member

An additional problem with allocating Ms or Mr is that not everyone IS a Ms or Mr, regardless of their gender. A whole new level of offence can be caused if Colonel Mustard, Reverend Green and Professor Plum are addressed in that way.

Scott,

 

You get it.

 

In America we can use first names with total strangers, so whether it's Frances or Francis it sounds the same and gender, etc., etc. is irrelevant when addressing them.

 

But if you come from a culture where using first names is not always welcome in all circumstances, especially from older people or traditionalists, titles matter. When I worked in Duesseldorf, I would never in a million years have called my colleague and the eminence grise of the company "Ludwig". He was "Herr Busch," and he always will be. 

 

I don't bother with last names in my conversations with Upwork clients. No one has ever, as far as I can tell, been offended, no matter what country they hail from. 

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