dispute-refund- rude client- hourly contract

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

This contract only lasted for 2 days (8 hours per day) -- Creating a template (costume with background, sample output for future orders) with 30+ hours weekly limit.

The client is insisting that I didn't do well on the outputs hence before I ended the contract the client offered me to be his "full-time" main editor because of the output I sent. I rejected the offer and ended the contract because I don't prefer an order-based project for a "full-time position" (this is where it confuses me). I tried to go an extra mile with this client by providing him images for photo listing as well and he even liked it.

During the hourly contract, the client gave one theme to work on at a time. so I worked on 1 template for 8 hours. Photo sourcing, Image enlargement (I didn't even include the time rendering this process because this takes a while and I informed the client about it), Photo composites, Fixing shadows and lights, Color correction.

So here's the problem.

After I ended the contract, the client said that I charged him more than the output produced. When in fact I just timed the work while working for this contract and I kept him posted on what I do. It seems like this client doesn't understand the proposal/ hourly rate contract.

Because he didn't like the first output I offered to revise this first output as a resolution to his complaint. But after that, this client is asking for additional work on 5 more templates as a resolution to his complaint that "I didn't produce great works" and he paid a lot for my time. I don't reply to his messages anymore as this client is stressing me out. I don't want to talk to this client anymore because he accused me as a thief and saying that what happened is robbery. I don't think I deserve those words.

With that being said he is asking for a refund and dispute. However, I don't want to accept any of those as I think I have been fair with the contract. How should I respond to this without talking to the client? What are the steps I should go with? The payment of this client is "In Review"

Let me know your thoughts! Stay safe xx

ashrafkhan81 · ‎09-10-2021

Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

I used the tracker to track time.

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?

Yes, I used the tracker to track the time.

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

Lynnel V wrote:
Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?
Yes, I used the tracker to track the time.

Did you put in meaningful memos to describe the work being worked on?

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

Amanda L wrote:
Lynnel V wrote:
Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?
Yes, I used the tracker to track the time.
Did you put in meaningful memos to describe the work being worked on?

I wasn't able to put any memos in the tracker 😞

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

Lynnel V wrote:
Amanda L wrote:
Lynnel V wrote:
Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?
Yes, I used the tracker to track the time.
Did you put in meaningful memos to describe the work being worked on?
I wasn't able to put any memos in the tracker 😞

You should have been able to put them in while it was tracking. What do you mean you weren't "able"?

Is the contract closed now? You had a period of time to review your work diary and address the memos. So it sounds like you didn't. Well learn for the future is all you can do. In the future put in the memos (you can put in a recurring memo that will be there automatically as you track so you don't have to go back afterwards). Without the memos, you aren't protected. Live and learn is all you can do. You can still reject the refund, but he may be able to dispute some hours.

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

Amanda L wrote:
Lynnel V wrote:
Amanda L wrote:
Lynnel V wrote:
Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?
Yes, I used the tracker to track the time.
Did you put in meaningful memos to describe the work being worked on?
I wasn't able to put any memos in the tracker 😞
You should have been able to put them in while it was tracking. What do you mean you weren't "able"?

Is the contract closed now? You had a period of time to review your work diary and address the memos. So it sounds like you didn't. Well learn for the future is all you can do. In the future put in the memos (you can put in a recurring memo that will be there automatically as you track so you don't have to go back afterwards). Without the memos, you aren't protected. Live and learn is all you can do. You can still reject the refund, but he may be able to dispute some hours.

The contract is now closed. The client requested a refund and dispute. Which of these 2 should I take action of? I can't see any reject button for refund and this is what I see for dispute.

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

How much of a refund did they request? The whole job?

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

Read this: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062158-Dispute-an-Agency-or-Freelancer-s-Hours

And this: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068588-Client-Disputed-My-Hours

To see how it works. If you reject the dispute, Upwork will review your work diary to see what, if anything, should be refunded. Upwork is clear that disputes based on quality are not eligible to be refunded. But without memos, it gets murkier.

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

Amanda L wrote:
How much of a refund did they request? The whole job?

Yes, the client is asking for a refund for the whole job $395.

petra_r · ‎09-10-2021

Lynnel V wrote:
Amanda L wrote:
How much of a refund did they request? The whole job?
Yes, the client is asking for a refund for the whole job $395.

Did you log all hours within one week? You will lose payment for all hours from last week (30. August to 5th of September) that didn't comply with all the terms of the protection. In other words, anything without a meaningful memo will be refunded.

Amanda L wrote:
But without memos, it gets murkier.

It doesn't get murkier. No memo - client wins the dispute.

The End

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

Petra R wrote:
Amanda L wrote:
But without memos, it gets murkier.
It doesn't get murkier. No memo - client wins the dispute.

The End

Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't sure if, because the client was questioning quality, if that would still just be the hardline Upwork takes. It's really kind of a crappy loophole when the question is not the hours spent. But thems the rules.

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

I kept the client posted during my working hours. Do you think it can be considered if I send them screenshots of the conversation?

petra_r · ‎09-10-2021

Lynnel V wrote:
I kept the client posted during my working hours. Do you think it can be considered if I send them screenshots of the conversation?

Never seen it being taking into consideration. The rules are very clear, and very strict. All that matters is how you tracked your time(including memos and activity levels etc)

petra_r · ‎09-10-2021

Basically, as the client is disputing the hours and you didn't track the time according to the terms of the hourly protection, you will lose the dispute.

If you didn't add memos, you will lose the dispute by default.

So yes, you can reject, but the end result will be the same. The client will win all hours from last week that were not properly tracked (the ones without a meaningful work memo...)

a_lipsey · ‎09-10-2021

Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?

This is basically the only thing that matters. If you used the time tracker with meaningful memos, then I would refuse the refund. The client cannot really dispute hours tracked properly using the time tracker, and it's my understanding that there's no arbitration for hourly contracts. An hourly contract is for hours worked, not based on deliverables like a fixed price contract. If you worked the hours and tracked them properly, then you are protected.

If you used manual hours, I would try to agree to a negotiated amount with the client, because technically he can dispute all the manual hours and not need to prove anything.

If this was fixed price it's another ball game.

pewpewpichu · ‎09-10-2021

Amanda L wrote:
Ashraf K wrote:
Did you use tracker to track the time or used manual hours?
This is basically the only thing that matters. If you used the time tracker with meaningful memos, then I would refuse the refund. The client cannot really dispute hours tracked properly using the time tracker, and it's my understanding that there's no arbitration for hourly contracts. An hourly contract is for hours worked, not based on deliverables like a fixed price contract. If you worked the hours and tracked them properly, then you are protected.

If you used manual hours, I would try to agree to a negotiated amount with the client, because technically he can dispute all the manual hours and not need to prove anything.

If this was fixed price it's another ball game.

When I reject the dispute, will the client also see the comment and attachments? Thank you so much for replying! I really appreciate your help.

prestonhunter · ‎09-10-2021

I think some freelancers overthink this.

But Upwork employees processing these hourly disputes just follow a checklist..

app-logged

memos

screenshots

mouse/keyboard activity

They aren't looking at messages or files or work quality or fairness or rudeness or anything else.

prestonhunter · ‎09-10-2021

re: "When I reject the dispute, will the client also see the comment and attachments?"

Probably not.

Assume that they WILL see your comments and attachments.

Assume EVERYONE will see your comments, including your mom. So keep it professional.