does upwork dispute agents even does anything??

[ranyahsg]

hi all,

so I have been in a dispute with 1 client, this is a fashion design job so it consists of a technical pack (a production sheet blueprint). i know what fabric i want to use, but i write just the general name because i need the manufacturer to provide the exact name later. And I also have proven that this can't be made up by the freelancer at HOME, all factories produce different fabric, and i also have uploaded screenshots and even sent the screenshot to my dispute agent. the size pack is wrong and i have warned my client time and time again he just don't want to listen and pin the blame on me later (or is this a plan to get a refund from the start??)

to add insult to the case, the client has already been using my designs and uploaded it on reddit and i also have sent the link to both the agent and the thread. I sent the agent WHOLE 27 pages of evidence. but I think the agent is plain lazy, today I heard again from her just to go from 0, she questioned things that i have wrote in the previous emails and previous thread and she immediately offered me to go to arbitration. why even hire a dispute agent if all they're doing is just cold lazy emailing and forward what 2 parties said?

I have evidence on everything, but it just seems to be brushed off to the lies my client spat to her. pls see attached, and see if its 'not detailed' 'copy pasted' or anything. i am getting tired of this pointless dispute.

[versailles]

Rania, Upwork provide only mediation services. They try to smooth things between the client and the freelancer if a dispute arises.

Upwork cannot legally resolve your dispute. If the mediation fails, both parties are invited to start an arbitration process which is handled by the American Arbitration Association. In this case, you, the client and Upwork have to pay $291 to the AAA.

If you pay and the client doesn't, you win the dispute and you get your $291 back. If both of you pay, your $291 are gone and the case goes into arbitration. The AAA agent comes to a decision that is then legally binding. 

[prestonhunter]

Rania, you told us details of your situation, trying to explain why you are right and the client is wrong.

None of that really matters in a dispute.

Upwork does not decide who is "right" and who is "wrong."

Upwork does not review your work or the files you provide to a client.

Upwork representatives might not read any of the details about what is going on.

Because that is not what the Upwork dispute process is about. It is not like a court of law. As Rene aptly explained, some of these things may well be considered in the ARBITRATION process, but they are not factors in the dispute process.

My basic rule of thumb is: avoid disputes at all costs. If a dispute occurs, it means there has been a severe failure in the intended Upwork freelancing process. Clients should never trigger disputes. Disputes are NOT how successful clients get projects completed. And freelancers should be proactive in their handling of contracts by using strategies that eliminate the possibility that they will need to file a dispute.

[ranyahsg]

wow then how can we possibly be protected in this website?

if i am a client i can easily hire a person then cancels the job later, if im lucky i will get refunds without a dispute. if it happens to get into dispute, i can just pick a freelancer who is not making much and go into arbitration knowing he can't pay. so convenient!! this client has done this several times already and i have did what was expected from me, yet he can easily dissapears for a few days then later cancels on me and ask for refunds?? this is a huge spot that can be abused by clients. and i read in his reviews there is one freelancer citing he's duping him with the same method.

glad to know i was not protected at all! and now if i ever want to be a client, now i know how exactly i can get free work done for me 🙂 thanks upwork!

[versailles]

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@Rania S wrote:

wow then how can we possibly be protected in this website? 

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Easy peasy. Put the $291 on the table. If your client is indeed pulling a trick, they won't pay because they know they will lose the arbitration, thus the money in escrow and the $291.

I would call their bluff and smash the money on the table. They will certainly chicken out and you will cash in the pot.

[prestonhunter]

re: "wow then how can we possibly be protected in this website?"

There are many protections for freelancers. Hourly contracts are simpler and safer for freelancers.

One of my biggest protections is the quality of my work.

Clients appreciate what I do for them so much that they will not do anything to jeopardize my willingness to continue working for them. So they would never file a dispute or try to do something that prevents me from getting paid.

Another protection is the quality of the clients I work for. Freelancers often read up on a client's Upwork history and decline to work for clients with troubled past relationships with freelancers.

[tlbp]

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@Rania S wrote:

wow then how can we possibly be protected in this website?

if i am a client i can easily hire a person then cancels the job later, if im lucky i will get refunds without a dispute. if it happens to get into dispute, i can just pick a freelancer who is not making much and go into arbitration knowing he can't pay. so convenient!! this client has done this several times already and i have did what was expected from me, yet he can easily dissapears for a few days then later cancels on me and ask for refunds?? this is a huge spot that can be abused by clients. and i read in his reviews there is one freelancer citing he's duping him with the same method.

glad to know i was not protected at all! and now if i ever want to be a client, now i know how exactly i can get free work done for me 🙂 thanks upwork!

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 Your assessment of the protection provided for fixed priced contracts is accurate. You are only protected by the integrity of the client. In this case, you may have to pay for arbitration to prevail. If your work is being displayed on websites, you may be able to request a takedown due to copyright infringement.  But yes, if you can't afford to pursue your legal remedies, then a scammer can steal your intellectual property from you. Keep in mind though, if you work has not been paid for, it still belongs to you. So you can sell the same design  to someone else or publish it freely so that anyone can use it. 

Sorry to learn that this "client" is not paying. Once the contract closes, be sure to indicate that the client did not pay for the work. Don't go into a lot of detail-- just add a short sentence to warn other freelancers. 

[researchediting]

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@Preston H wrote:

...Upwork does not decide who is "right" and who is "wrong."

Correct. 

Upwork does not review your work or the files you provide to a client.

Knowable?

Upwork representatives might not read any of the details about what is going on. 

Rather misleading. Upwork pays attention to, and makes judgments on, "what is going on" once the dispute process begins. Their ability to judge is limited—legally constrained by their role as escrow agents. As with escrow, they have a checklist (presumably automated in the case of escrow, human-monitored in the case of disputes) defining certain criteria that must be met before funds are released to either client or contractor. The resolution of the dispute may well depend on actions, or failures to act, by either party, which should be documented in the contract room/message thread.

And freelancers should be proactive in their handling of contracts by using strategies that eliminate the possibility that they will need to file a dispute.

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When a client with whom one has a good working relationship disappears—as in the only case I know—due to a family emergency, and Upwork automatically initiates a request for refund—while claiming it was initiated by the client—the contractor's only option for getting paid is to file a dispute. There is no strategy that can prevent such a situation. Once the situation arises, brief documentation of discreet attempts to reach the client are in order.

[versailles]

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@Douglas Michael M wrote:

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When a client with whom one has a good working relationship disappears—as in the only case I know—due to a family emergency, and Upwork automatically initiates a request for refund—while claiming it was initiated by the client—the contractor's only option for getting paid is to file a dispute. There is no strategy that can prevent such a situation. Once the situation arises, brief documentation of discreet attempts to reach the client are in order.

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What? How would Upwork automatically initiate a request for refund? Unless it's a dormant milestone of course, after a certain amount of time I think these are indeed refunded to the client.

But a milestone with work submitted is automatically released to the FLer 14 days after submission.

[researchediting]

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@Rene K wrote:

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@Douglas Michael M wrote:

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When a client with whom one has a good working relationship disappears—as in the only case I know—due to a family emergency, and Upwork automatically initiates a request for refund—while claiming it was initiated by the client—the contractor's only option for getting paid is to file a dispute. There is no strategy that can prevent such a situation. Once the situation arises, brief documentation of discreet attempts to reach the client are in order.

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What? How would Upwork automatically initiate a request for refund? Unless it's a dormant milestone of course, after a certain amount of time I think these are indeed refunded to the client.

But a milestone with work submitted is automatically released to the FLer 14 days after submission.

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It is as you said, René. The client and I were working satisfactorily through a difficult contract. Escrow was funded. Upwork was required to release the escrow funds at 90 days, and closed the contract, with no regard to the actual state of the contracted work. When it does this, the freelancer is notified that the client has requested a refund.  

[petra_r]

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@Douglas Michael M wrote:

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What? How would Upwork automatically initiate a request for refund? Unless it's a dormant milestone of course, after a certain amount of time I think these are indeed refunded to the client.

But a milestone with work submitted is automatically released to the FLer 14 days after submission.

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It is as you said, René. The client and I were working satisfactorily through a difficult contract. Escrow was funded.

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 All you would have had to do was request a Dollar before the 90 days were up. These days (not sure about back then) both client and freelancer get a warning email when the 90 day line is approaching.

[petra_r]

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@Douglas Michael M wrote:

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And freelancers should be proactive in their handling of contracts by using strategies that eliminate the possibility that they will need to file a dispute.

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When a client with whom one has a good working relationship disappears—as in the only case I know—due to a family emergency, and Upwork automatically initiates a request for refund—while claiming it was initiated by the client—the contractor's only option for getting paid is to file a dispute. There is no strategy that can prevent such a situation. Once the situation arises, brief documentation of discreet attempts to reach the client are in order.

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 Well, there *is* a strategy to prevent this: The freelancer requests all or part, indeed ANY part, even $ 1.00 of the funded milestone, to be released before 90 days are up.

That said: Preston's claim that the Upwork rep does not review files etc and "not read any of the details about what is going on" is of course not correct at all.

[ranyahsg]

you know, at this point I kind of believe Preston's claims that upwork agent does not read the proof I sent. she keeps on asking on things that i have written and include in pages of evidences. or maybe just my agent.

so i just put matters on my hand and tell my client its his call, if he wants to go to arbitration lets do it, or if he wants revision I'll do it also. he picked the latter, so hopefully my case will be closed soon (and hopefully no funny trick pulled by this client or else i am going to lose my **** bro)

[bobafett999]

Not necessarily.  You still may have to go to arbitration to get paid.  You shouldn't have told him you are going to arbitration....Now he can keep on asking for revisions and strengthen his case that you did not deliver.

[researchediting]

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@Petra R wrote:

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@Douglas Michael M wrote:

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When a client with whom one has a good working relationship disappears—as in the only case I know—due to a family emergency, and Upwork automatically initiates a request for refund—while claiming it was initiated by the client—the contractor's only option for getting paid is to file a dispute. There is no strategy that can prevent such a situation. Once the situation arises, brief documentation of discreet attempts to reach the client are in order.

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 Well, there *is* a strategy to prevent this: The freelancer requests all or part, indeed ANY part, even $ 1.00 of the funded milestone, to be released before 90 days are up.

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 OK. Not quite sure how practical such a suggestion would be under the conditions I described.

[ranyahsg]

lol update just for the lols:

so he wont speak with me directly and told me to contact his manufacturers instead.

when i spoke with the manufacturer they said the problem was so little they'll solve it themselves. like what??? my client spat all the lies in the world telling my upwork dispute agent that my work isn't usable and stuff. and my upwork dispute agent believed him and asked for details even mentioning quality of work is lacking lol omg i can't.

[aocumen]

Hi Rania, 

I checked your account and can see that the client released the funds in escrow to you. Was there anything that needed looking into? 

[ranyahsg]

Hi Avery,

i have 2 disputes with the same client. he released the funds for only one dispute, i was fighting for the other one. I reached out to the client and we've come into agreement, he hasn't released it but i guess its pretty much finished.

huge thanks for the community for all your insights into the case!

and 'thanks' to my dispute agent, i guess? lol

if she never acted like automatic bot i wouldn't try to solve the problem myself haha