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e-rachel
Community Member

"Expert Level" jobs with "Entry level" rates

Hey Upwork community,
Share if you feel the same way! I'm so frustrated with clients inviting me to an "Expert level" job post where the client doesn’t reveal their budget. So I only realize after my wasted effort of sending a proposal that the client replies back with an “entry level” budget.

The problem is that many clients have zero clue about what each level of talent costs in a specific industry. Upwork is not Fiverr. Clients need to be more educated on how talent is valued at each tier.

I think Upwork should set up a system where clients can NOT advertise "Expert level" jobs unless they have the appropriate budget for that type of work within a specific industry. This way, if they only have $20 to spend, a red flag or notice pops up, so they can't advertise the job at "Expert level". Or better yet, the notice should say, in order to send an invite to this top-rated plus freelancer (or whatever your status), the minimum budget per deliverable must be.

Otherwise, what's the point of designating us with these talent badges if it's not being properly recognized and valued by clients?

If you agree, please give me a kudos, so Upwork escalates this issue to their boardroom -- or however they make decisions...
13 REPLIES 13
AndreaG
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Rachel,

 

Thanks for sharing your feedback with us.

We'll be sure to pass it on to our product team.

 

Thanks!

~Andrea
Upwork
tlbp
Community Member

I wonder who will get to decide what an appropriate fee is? Would we hold annual votes by skill group? 

lysis10
Community Member


Tonya P wrote:

Maybe Upwork should offer an add-on service to freelancers. Those who want Upwork to screen their prospects for them could pay an extra fee for the service. 


lol this is actually not a bad idea. You want Upwork to hold your hand? Cool, you pay them a monthly fee and ask them to help. Let the rest of us do our winner thang.

 

They kinda tried this a couple years ago (except you didn't pay). Apparently, people need a lot of hand holding but they put those people in with people like me, so we got treated the same. It was kinda insulting getting emailed telling me how to interview. Like dude...c'mon now, give me a leg up against my competition but telling me how to interview is kinda insulting.

tlbp
Community Member


Jennifer M wrote:

Tonya P wrote:

Maybe Upwork should offer an add-on service to freelancers. Those who want Upwork to screen their prospects for them could pay an extra fee for the service. 


lol this is actually not a bad idea. You want Upwork to hold your hand? Cool, you pay them a monthly fee and ask them to help. Let the rest of us do our winner thang.

 

They kinda tried this a couple years ago (except you didn't pay). Apparently, people need a lot of hand holding but they put those people in with people like me, so we got treated the same. It was kinda insulting getting emailed telling me how to interview. Like dude...c'mon now, give me a leg up against my competition but telling me how to interview is kinda insulting.


LOL I totally deleted that comment b/c I was afraid they'd run with it and start charging us all to provide prospecting advice. 😬
I mean, I get the whole, "my time is too valuable" for this stuff argument. But, it doesn't take much time at all to click decline--you don't even have to read the invite first. Do we really want clients "educated" into not sending invites to people who might want the gigs? The forums would be flooded with people posting about how dare Upwork scare off their prospects and all the money they lost because Upwork told the prospect not to contact them and that must surely be the reason they aren't getting any invites, and, and, and...   

e-rachel
Community Member

Hi Tonya,
I decline jobs that don’t seem to fit my criteria. The problem is that the budget isn’t always shown upfront and all I see is “expert level”. So, assuming it’s expert level, I send a proposal accordingly— only afterwards to realize there’s a total mismatch in the client’s expectations versus their budget.
petra_r
Community Member


Rachel E wrote:

I decline jobs that don’t seem to fit my criteria. The problem is that the budget isn’t always shown upfront and all I see is “expert level”. So, assuming it’s expert level, I send a proposal accordingly— only afterwards to realize there’s a total mismatch in the client’s expectations versus their budget.

And?

Negotiate or decline and move on.

 

Unless you want fees to double, you can't expect Upwork to micromanage every detail.

lysis10
Community Member


Tonya P wrote:


LOL I totally deleted that comment b/c I was afraid they'd run with it and start charging us all to provide prospecting advice. 😬
I mean, I get the whole, "my time is too valuable" for this stuff argument. But, it doesn't take much time at all to click decline--you don't even have to read the invite first. Do we really want clients "educated" into not sending invites to people who might want the gigs? The forums would be flooded with people posting about how dare Upwork scare off their prospects and all the money they lost because Upwork told the prospect not to contact them and that must surely be the reason they aren't getting any invites, and, and, and...   


ooooh, my bad. I saw your post before you deleted! If you want me to delete, PM me and I will. I agree with you that the best way to work on Upwork is to let the freelancer handle these things but people don't think ahead.

e-rachel
Community Member

Hi Tonya,
I’m not suggesting a set fee at all — this would be limiting and unfair. What I AM suggesting is that there’s a fee range. So for example, a beginner graphic designer may range from $10-30 per logo, while advanced would be $250-500 and top-rated plus, $500-1000.

For a writer, a beginner rate starts out at $20-30 per article. However, this was the rate that the client proposed on a supposedly “expert level job”.

What I’m suggesting is that Upwork further improves their infrastructure to make better client-freelancer matches. But beyond just that, Upwork isn’t doing enough to educate clients on what the market rates are for each industry at various experience levels. There needs to be more transparency and awareness — after all, what is the difference between top-rated, top-rated plus and expert vetted? If clients don’t know how to connect these badges to cost and value, then they’re meaningless!

As a result, it’s frustrating for both parties. Clients may feel put-off because their expectations for work quality aren’t meeting the reality of their budget. And freelancers, like myself, are feeling annoyed by the confusion and lack of client awareness. There’s also the wasted effort that we invest in accepting invites to jobs that don’t have a clear budget and are mislabelled as “expert level” because the client has no clue about how much that talent costs.

Upwork needs to help us advocate for better awareness about the connection between talent level and cost. Maybe Upwork should survey freelancers from each industry at each talent level to better understand how the fees vary. Keep in mind that our hourly rate doesn’t reflect cost per deliverable. For example, if I’m $90/hr but another writer is $150/hr, it’s misleading because I still might be the more expensive one if we’re thinking about things as “per deliverable”.

Maybe Upwork can collect clearer intel about these matters. Is there inconsistency? Should some freelancers bump up their rates?

Honestly, so much can be improved!
petra_r
Community Member


Rachel E wrote:
 Upwork isn’t doing enough to educate clients on what the market rates are for each industry at various experience levels.

Because that is not their job. There is no way in the world they can decide what the right rate is for every freelancer-client combo in every type of job.

 

You are looking at a global marketplace with US-based blinkers

kbadeau
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Rachel E wrote:
 Upwork isn’t doing enough to educate clients on what the market rates are for each industry at various experience levels.

Because that is not their job. There is no way in the world they can decide what the right rate is for every freelancer-client combo in every type of job.

 

You are looking at a global marketplace with US-based blinkers


I fully admit that I am too, but it seems to me like there's a pretty easy fix. SHOW ME WHAT THE PRICE IS IN THE INVITATION.

 

Right now when I click on an invitation, it shows the Experience Level and whether a job is Fixed Rate or Hourly, but it doesn't show what the rate is. If I click on the job posting, however, it does. So today I clicked on a job posting from an invitation that said Expert Level with a Fixed Rate for a logo design ... and the rate was $100. I understand that somewhere other than the U.S. that might be a great rate for a freelancer, but to me, a great logo takes more than 2 hours to design, and therefore my hourly rate is clearly a mismatch. But even so, if Upwork would just SHOW ME THE FIXED RATE ON THE INVITATION rather than making me take the extra step of clicking on the job posting (why aren't those the same??) then I could just decline instantly.

 

And just forget the Expert, Intermediate, Entry level tags. Of course everyboday wants an expert and also wants to pay as little as possible. The tags are clearly meaningless if the rates are meant to be global.

e-rachel
Community Member

Hi Andrea,
I re-wrote my thoughts to make my concerns clearer because I saw there was some confusion on the thread.

Basically, I meant that this problem applies to contracts where the client doesn’t clearly outline their budget upfront.

Please forward the updated version of my message above to the appropriate department. Much appreciated!!!
carloslobo28
Community Member

I pointed out this situation several months ago: client asking for expert level, the rates between 3 and 5 dollars. Communities Gurues said in that occasion that taking any action would mean to invite clients to get away. I don't know at this point. But the scheme of these clients may look offending, inappropiate, unrealistic. Maybe flag the job as "unrealistic expectations" but don't know whether Upwork will take that into account.

richardrader
Community Member

Eh... they are annoying but I would say let them be. In the end they will get what they pay for. Regulation will only drive clients away from the platform.

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