"The rules don't apply to me" and "doing what...

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

One of my friends used to be an Upwork freelancer. She may still have an account, but she doesn't freelance anymore. A couple of years ago, she found a client on Upwork, did some work for them through the platform, then she recommended to the client they pay her directly to avoid all of the Upwork fees (both fees paid by clients, and paid by freelancers). The client was more than willing to do that, and liked that she was doing this in their mutual best interest. So much so that they hired her...as a full time employee...and now she makes a HUGE life-changing salary with all the benefits. So, in this case taking a client off Upwork worked out very well for her.

I tell this story because we all know the rules. And, I personally have a thing about people who feel that "the rules don't apply to me." That's how my friend apparently felt...the rules didn't apply to her. And it worked in her favor...big time in her favor. Now, I have had clients who I knew would be very receptive to the idea of paying off the platform. I often wondered if I missed a better opportunity had we had a conversation about it and mutually agreed to take payments off Upwork, in service of the best interests of a client.

lysis10 · ‎08-08-2021

Is the salary really life changing though? Or was she poor or something before that? I toyed with being a wagie last year. I crashed and burned but it's good because I would not be making what I make now and now I get to laugh at meltdowns.

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

With stock options, bonus pay, she makes 250k a year. Or at least she did when I last talked to her, and she's had a promotion since then. She used to live in an apartment on a modest income (not poor), and now lives in a house with a cool sports car, and takes 3 weeks of vacation. So, yes, snubbing Upwork changed her life and worked out in her favor for sure.

lysis10 · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
With stock options, bonus pay, she makes 250k a year. Or at least she did when I last talked to her, and she's had a promotion since then. She used to live in an apartment on a modest income (not poor), and now lives in a house with a cool sports car, and takes 3 weeks of vacation. So, yes, snubbing Upwork changed her life and worked out in her favor for sure.

I would take that number with a grain of salt (everybody lies about their income), but aside from that most freelancers are doing this to find a real job. As for the rules, if you never need your Upwork account again, then burning the bridge doesn't matter. But I would also say that some of the NO REASON people burned their Upwork account thinking they never need it again and are now trying to create new accounts that get NO REASON'd. I like my options, personally. I even keep crappy mill accounts on deck just in case.

martina_plaschka · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
With stock options, bonus pay, she makes 250k a year. Or at least she did when I last talked to her, and she's had a promotion since then. She used to live in an apartment on a modest income (not poor), and now lives in a house with a cool sports car, and takes 3 weeks of vacation. So, yes, snubbing Upwork changed her life and worked out in her favor for sure.

That all sounds great, with the exception of taking 3 weeks vacation... here we get 5 to 6 weeks paid vacation. Also, I don't understand sick days. Here we don't work when we are sick, no matter how long it takes. Anyways, I just remembered that I'm recently retired, so forget what I said.

martina_plaschka · ‎08-08-2021

Jennifer M wrote:
Is the salary really life changing though? Or was she poor or something before that? I toyed with being a wagie last year. I crashed and burned but it's good because I would not be making what I make now and now I get to laugh at meltdowns.

Lol - a wagie! Thank you Jennifer as always for expanding my vocabulary!

hglewis · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:

I tell this story because we all know the rules. And, I personally have a thing about people who feel that "the rules don't apply to me." That's how my friend apparently felt...the rules didn't apply to her. And it worked in her favor...big time in her favor. Now, I have had clients who I knew would be very receptive to the idea of paying off the platform. I often wondered if I missed a better opportunity had we had a conversation about it and mutually agreed to take payments off Upwork, in service of the best interests of a client.

No!

When you agreed to the terms of the platform, honor your agreement.

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

Woodrow Q wrote:
David S M wrote:

I tell this story because we all know the rules. And, I personally have a thing about people who feel that "the rules don't apply to me." That's how my friend apparently felt...the rules didn't apply to her. And it worked in her favor...big time in her favor. Now, I have had clients who I knew would be very receptive to the idea of paying off the platform. I often wondered if I missed a better opportunity had we had a conversation about it and mutually agreed to take payments off Upwork, in service of the best interests of a client.
No!

When you agreed to the terms of the platform, honor your agreement.

No? You don't think I have missed an opportunity. I think that's debatable. Generally-speaking, I would agree with you about honoring agreements. However, I would say that you're in the minority on this one, as are most of the "regulars" who frequent this forum. Most people I have met and talked to while working on contracts (freelancers and clients alike) play fast and loose with the rules, and generally get awarded for doing so. It sucks, but that's been my experience. As one lawyer I talked to put it, most of Upwork's non-circumvention policies are anti-business, which is frowned upon in the U.S. But yet we're expected to honor them.

hglewis · ‎08-08-2021

Hello David,

David S M wrote:
No? You don't think I have missed an opportunity. I think that's debatable. Generally-speaking, I would agree with you about honoring agreements. However, I would say that you're in the minority on this one, as are most of the "regulars" who frequent this forum. Most people I have met and talked to while working on contracts (freelancers and clients alike) play fast and loose with the rules, and generally get awarded for doing so. It sucks, but that's been my experience. As one lawyer I talked to put it, most of Upwork's non-circumvention policies are anti-business, which is frowned upon in the U.S. But yet we're expected to honor them.

Who cares what others have done. If they believe in breaking the rules, there is always a steep price the freelancer will eventually pay.

As a business owner for the past 28+ years, there is never an opportunity to debate your word when you went into the agreement with your eyes fully open.

Using the platform to find ways to circumvent the process tells me that if I'm the client, what else would this freelancer do for me?

The price for ruining one's business reputation is far too great for a few extra bucks.

If a person wants to skirt the rules, close your account and go elsewhere.

petra_r · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
No? You don't think I have missed an opportunity.?

Every time I pass my elderly neighbour and don't steal her pension I have, by definition, "missed an opportunity".

It's called being an honest and decent human being.

Robert Y wrote:
But I don't see much wrong with filling our a form (e.g. Calendly) that requires your email address before you've placed a contract,

You still risk losing your account doing so, whether you "see something wrong with it" or not.

Is it worth it?

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

Petra R wrote:
David S M wrote:
No? You don't think I have missed an opportunity.?
Every time I pass my elderly neighbour and don't steal her pension I have, by definition, "missed an opportunity".

LOL. This is the most preposterous comparison. Upwork is hardly an elderly neighbor with a pension. And, by "opportunity" I don't mean just doing the same freelance work for a client and keeping that 5%-20% that I lose with Upwork's fee. I was always happy to pay that fee, and still am. By "opportunity" I mean being offered a job that could change my life after working together off-platform. And, I'm not even looking for a job. I've worked in the corporate world for 25+ years and hated it. I actually do really like owning my own business and working for myself very much. But it would be really hard to turn down if someone offered to pay me 2 or 3 times what I make annually now, plus bennies. The story about my friend I admit is not the typical Upwork story. But she does make an enormous amount of money now, and it would never have happened had she not recommended to the client that they take their business off the platform. The client didn't like Upwork, and would have parted ways with her had she not make that recommendation. That one moment led to a hire. Was she dishonest? perhaps. But I suppose the employer didn't see it that way. Like I said I see the non-circumvention rule as anti-business, and I'm sure a lot of business people do as well. It really does suck a lot, it's unfair, and I hate it, but I just wonder if I would have been presented with an opportunity like she was if I had ever done the same thing. I guess I'll never know for sure.

petra_r · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
Petra R wrote:
David S M wrote:
No? You don't think I have missed an opportunity.?
Every time I pass my elderly neighbour and don't steal her pension I have, by definition, "missed an opportunity".
LOL. This is the most preposterous comparison. Upwork is hardly an elderly neighbor with a pension.

How so? You are either a thief and a fraud or you are not. The rest is merely nuances,

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

Petra R wrote:
You are either a thief and a fraud or you are not. The rest is merely nuances,

I think that's the whole point. Some people just don't see it so black and white. My friend, for example, I would not call a thief and a fraud. The rest may be nuances, but that's what business decisions and agreements are all about.

petra_r · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
My friend, for example, I would not call a thief and a fraud.

So you think she didn't steal Upwork's fee? How so?

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
Petra R wrote:
You are either a thief and a fraud or you are not. The rest is merely nuances,
I think that's the whole point. Some people just don't see it so black and white. My friend, for example, I would not call a thief and a fraud.

Your friend agreed to pay Upwork a percentage of her earnings if she met a client through the website, but she didn't. How is that not theft?

hglewis · ‎08-09-2021

Hello David,

David S M wrote:
Like I said I see the non-circumvention rule as anti-business, and I'm sure a lot of business people do as well. It really does suck a lot, it's unfair, and I hate it, but I just wonder if I would have been presented with an opportunity like she was if I had ever done the same thing. I guess I'll never know for sure.

Upwork's rules are no different than

Non-Disclosure Agreements
Non-Compete Agreements
SOP Agreements

When a business owner wants to be a vendor for the US Federal Government, we must comply with NIST & CMMC guidelines without question or lose the privilege of conducting business with them.

Once you sign, you must comply.

There is no unfairness or anti-business on Upwork's part. That is an assumption and not a fact.

If it were true, the platform wouldn't have a history of cranking out freelancers making $100,000, $250,000, $500,000, $700,000, or $1,000,000+ in revenue providing different services.

The bottom line, if you want to build a strong freelance business on Upwork, then partner with them.

Why put effort into speculating on the "What Ifs" when one has a business to build? Keep your eye on the goal. Everything else steals your dreams, robs you of success, and slows your momentum as a business owner.

roberty1y · ‎08-08-2021

Robert Y wrote:
But I don't see much wrong with filling our a form (e.g. Calendly) that requires your email address before you've placed a contract,
You still risk losing your account doing so, whether you "see something wrong with it" or not.

Is it worth it?

They'd really take your account away for that? I've never heard of it happening.

petra_r · ‎08-08-2021

Robert Y wrote:

Robert Y wrote:
But I don't see much wrong with filling our a form (e.g. Calendly) that requires your email address before you've placed a contract,
You still risk losing your account doing so, whether you "see something wrong with it" or not.

Is it worth it?

They'd really take your account away for that? I've never heard of it happening.

Of course they do. Freelancers are a dime a dozen. If they violate the tems of service for the hell of it they are kicked out, What else did you expect?

roberty1y · ‎08-08-2021

Personally, I wouldn't contemplate breaking the spirit of the rules, e.g. by taking work off the platform. But I don't see much wrong with filling our a form (e.g. Calendly) that requires your email address before you've placed a contract, provided you're not going to actually contact the client off site.

As for your friend who got the high-flying job, she could have gone to work for that client anyway after doing a legitimate contract on Upwork. It wasn't the ToS violation per se that got her the job.

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

Robert Y wrote:

As for your friend who got the high-flying job, she could have gone to work for that client anyway after doing a legitimate contract on Upwork. It wasn't the ToS violation per se that got her the job.

No, she wouldn't have gone to work for that client anyway. The client didn't like Upwork and would have just parted ways with her had she been adamant that the contract stay on Upwork, instead of serving the best interest of the client. She recommended she work together off-platform which then opened up the opportunity to be offered a job.

Someone else commented that there is a price to pay for taking a contract off Upwork. Well, he's right there is a price to pay, but it's paid by the client to the freelancer in the form of a nice salary, bonuses and stock options. That is a nice price to pay.

moonraker · ‎08-08-2021

It's just not worth the risk, regardless of how small the chances of being caught might be. The risk to reward ratio doesn't even come close to stacking up.

But I find it quite irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because other people are willing to break the rules.

dsmgdesign · ‎08-08-2021

Jamie F wrote:
It's just not worth the risk, regardless of how small the chances of being caught might be. The risk to reward ratio doesn't even come close to stacking up.

But I find it quite irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because other people are willing to break the rules.

I agree. I've always told myself the same thing. It's not worth the risk. But I find it irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because I've been unwilling to break the rules, and others who have broken the rules have been rewarded handsomely. No risk, no reward, perhaps? IDK.

a_lipsey · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
Jamie F wrote:
It's just not worth the risk, regardless of how small the chances of being caught might be. The risk to reward ratio doesn't even come close to stacking up.

But I find it quite irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because other people are willing to break the rules.
I agree. I've always told myself the same thing. It's not worth the risk. But I find it irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because I've been unwilling to break the rules, and others who have broken the rules have been rewarded handsomely. No risk, no reward, perhaps? IDK.

I take pride in the integrity of my business. I am bound by the ethical standards of my profession as well. I honestly don't care about how other people break the rules to make some money. Being unethical and breaking my business agreements is not what I stand for. It's not how I do business.

Stop worrying so much about what other people find permissible. What do you believe is right and ethical? What matters to you?

I can't make others live by my ethical standards, and I'd drive myself insane trying to enforce any level of ethical standards on others. You have to choose for yourself what you will or won't accept, ethically and in every other facet.

I appreciate people of integrity who honor their agreements and have ethical standards. I simply don't do business with those who don't. That's it. And I don't give it much thought otherwise.

Are you really losing out on a client who would likely screw you over in some way anyhow?

roberty1y · ‎08-08-2021

Jamie F wrote:
It's just not worth the risk, regardless of how small the chances of being caught might be. The risk to reward ratio doesn't even come close to stacking up.

But I find it quite irksome that I probably lose out on some opportunities because other people are willing to break the rules.

For every person who makes a killing by breaking the rules, there are at least ten who get ripped off.

martina_plaschka · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
Robert Y wrote:

As for your friend who got the high-flying job, she could have gone to work for that client anyway after doing a legitimate contract on Upwork. It wasn't the ToS violation per se that got her the job.
No, she wouldn't have gone to work for that client anyway. The client didn't like Upwork and would have just parted ways with her had she been adamant that the contract stay on Upwork, instead of serving the best interest of the client. She recommended she work together off-platform which then opened up the opportunity to be offered a job.

Someone else commented that there is a price to pay for taking a contract off Upwork. Well, he's right there is a price to pay, but it's paid by the client to the freelancer in the form of a nice salary, bonuses and stock options. That is a nice price to pay.

The client could also have chosen to pay the non-circumvention fee, and nobody would have broken any rules.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎08-08-2021

I'm not clear how taking an account off the platform serves a client's best interests unless the FL lowers their fee by an amount to cover the cc processing charges the client would otherwise pay and also discounts their own fee by whatever percentage would account for the UW fee.

I've had plenty of clients who find the UI here a nuisance and have moved off the platform with a couple, after we were well clear of the two-year requirement. In neither case was there an expectation that I lower my fees at all (and I didn't, partly because I now absorb payment transaction fees).

I disagree with the characterization of UW's disintermediation policy as "anti-business." The business model depends on users being honest and unwilling to cheat. Obviously, we all know lots of users are not honest and are willing to cheat. IMO they are the ones who are "anti-business."

In any case, if I understand correctly, the company didn't offer her a FT job because they liked her work on the contracts completed on UW but tendered the offer after she "served their best interests" by suggesting both parties cheat UW by bailing. Personally, I wouldn't be interested in going to work for a client like that but I wish her the joy of it.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-08-2021

It sounds like your friend wanted a full-time job and didn't want to be a freelancer, in which case, her actions weren't that much of a risk for her. In my case, I don't want to have a boss and work 9-5 in an office ever again, so there's no temptation to circumvent and lose my Upwork account.

And I agree with Petra that if you sign up for an Upwork account, you should stand by their rules, no matter what your personal opinion might be or how much cheating might benefit you. A deal is a deal, and I honour the agreements that I make.

wescowley · ‎08-08-2021

David S M wrote:
. I often wondered if I missed a better opportunity had we had a conversation about it and mutually agreed to take payments off Upwork, in service of the best interests of a client.

I'm not sure I see how exposing the client (and the freelancer) to the risk of losing their Upwork account and being responsible for the opt-out fee is in their best interest. I've had clients bring this up to me, and the answer is always the same: I track the two-year dates and we'll have the conversation then. It's not something I'd ever bring up to a client in the two-year window because it's not an option under the contract we both agreed to and it's not in either of our "best interests" to break that agreement.

I don't particularly like the circumvention rule, but I understand why it's there and, as far as I've seen, it's the least restrictive rule among the top players.

"The rules don't apply to me" and "doing what's right for the client" are at odds