refund by Upwork

ar-grigoryan · ‎01-14-2020

Hello,I have a question about Upwork fees and refund policy.

I have read an article where it was said that Upwork clients, who pay by project, i.e. fixed amount of money and not by hourly rate, have a right to demand a refund even after the work was done and the payment was issued. There was also mentioned that the refund could be made without my permission and even without notifying me.

I would like to know whether this is true , and if yes , how can I be sure that this will not happen to me?

Thank you in advance, regards

petra_r · ‎01-14-2020

Arayik G wrote:
Hello,I have a question about Upwork fees and refund policy.

I have read an article where it was said that Upwork clients, who pay by project, i.e. fixed amount of money and not by hourly rate, have a right to demand a refund even after the work was done and the payment was issued. There was also mentioned that the refund could be made without my permission and even without notifying me.

I would like to know whether this is true , and if yes , how can I be sure that this will not happen to me?

Thank you in advance, regards

That's not strictly speaking true. The only way that can happen is if the client issues a chargeback (if their credit card company claws the funds back from Upwork, which them means Upwork will get the money back from you if they can not defend the chargeback) and doing so is a violation of the terms of service and the client would get suspended for doing that.

It happens VERY rarely but there is very little you can do to protect yourself from it.

Clients can also request a refund even after money has been paid, but there is a deadline (30 days after the last milestone has been funded) but that would then go into mediation and then (potentially) arbitration. You would, however, be notified of this. The money would not be taken away until the dispute process is over.

wlyonsatl · ‎01-14-2020

Petra,

You know that a client chargeback does not necessarily mean Upwork will reverse payment to a freelancer for work legitimately done and provided to the client, so what you said is also not, strictly speaking, true. It is simply not true that "...Upwork will get the money back from you if they can not defend the chargeback."

Upwork has clearly stated in public filings that it has losses due to chargebacks on client's payments to Upwork.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Fixed-Price-contract-hold/td-p/684960/page/2

If Upwork, as you continue to claim, simply reversed all freelancer payments related to such fraud, it would have no such losses.

I'll give it a rest when you stop providing misinformation and half-truths on this subject to your fellow freelancers.

lysis10 · ‎01-14-2020

Will L wrote:
Petra,

You know that a client chargeback does not necessarily mean Upwork will reverse payment to a freelancer for work legitimately done and provided to the client, so what you said is also not, strictly speaking, true. It is simply not true that "...Upwork will get the money back from you if they can not defend the chargeback."

Upwork has clearly stated in public filings that it has losses due to chargebacks on client's payments to Upwork.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Fixed-Price-contract-hold/td-p/684960/page/2

If Upwork, as you continue to claim, simply reversed all freelancer payments related to such fraud, it would have no such losses.

I'll give it a rest when you stop providing misinformation and half-truths on this subject to your fellow freelancers.

Alllmost, Will. Allllmost.

When something like a chargeback happens and there is no money in the account, the account goes into the red. the freelancer would have to work off the negative balance before they could withdraw again. That is, of course, if the freelancer continues to work. A scammer would just withdraw and bail and leave the account in the red.

petra_r · ‎01-14-2020

Will L wrote:

Upwork has clearly stated in public filings that it has losses due to chargebacks on client's payments to Upwork.

If Upwork, as you continue to claim, simply reversed all freelancer payments related to such fraud, it would have no such losses.

Losses through chargebacks can be non-recoverable by Upwork for many reasons, such as if the freelancer has nothing to refund, has left the platform, was in on the con (turning hacked or stolen payment methods into cash), if the contract was hourly and the hours were tracked according to the terms of the protection, for example. Hence the statement that Upwork would not have losses arising from chargebacks if they clawed money back from the affected freelancers is false.

I also did not say "all freelancer payments are reversed" - I NEVER said "all" and not every chargeback is necessarily a fraud. When a genuine cardholder is defrauded because someone cloned or stole or hacked their card account or Paypal, it (the chargeback) is not fraud. In such cases the card-holder is also not the client (but a victim) at all and therefor not bound by Upwork's terms of service that forbid chargebacks.

Will L wrote:
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Fixed-Price-contract-hold/td-p/684960/page/2

The thread you linked was about a contract that was on hold, with the money already released from Escrow. There was no sign of a chargeback there at all. It had nothing to do with chargebacks.

There have been so many threads about freelancers having their money taken back by Upwork when a chargeback was not successfully defended (impossible in case of fraudulent use of a payment method) and at least one lengthy and interesting thread of a chargeback for thousands of Dollars being successfully defended and the freelancer being paid. BUT - while the defense was going on the freelancer's finances were on hold and he knew he would lose all the money - despite having done everything right and having even won arbitration.....

wlyonsatl · ‎01-15-2020

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

Upwork takes its assurances to freelancers that "an hour worked is an hour paid" and that "freelancers get paid for the work they deliver"...

https://www.upwork.com/hiring/for-clients/how-to-manage-your-first-project-with-upwork-payment-prote...

...very seriously.

Honest freelancers who follow Upwork's rules and procedures should do the same.

prestonhunter · ‎01-15-2020

Arayik:

Here is how you protect yourself:

If working on fixed-price contracts, start small. Is the project going to take a while, maybe cost $5000? That is fine. But start out with a small fixed-price contract, just for the first step. Around $100 to $150.

If you do the work, and the client releases payment, without any games, and without trying to rip you off, then that shows the client can be trusted. It also shows that the client likes you work and that the two of you are on the same page with regards to how to approach this project.

You can then do increasingly larger fixed-price contracts (or milestones) with the client. Because she has demonstrated that she can be trusted.

If you start out small, then if the client plays games or tries to rip you off or tries to ask for extra work beyond the agreement, etc., then you are not into the project to so deep - with so much time invested. You can afford to walk away if necessary.