unclear client/contract details

[mahmoudswielam]

Hello,
I have a contract going on with a client that wasn't clear to me at the start. she started this contract as a character study for 2 characters and now she wants to extend it to a whole children book with the same terms while I don't want to continue as I didn't know about the extension.
I need to mention that I also had an earlier fixed priced contract with her and it took longer than usual because of unclear instructions, as a result, I decided to go for an hourly contract if I will work with her again. But, when I thought that she will end the contract after I delivered the character studies, she added more milestones instead. 
What should I do?
Thanks

[prestonhunter]

Mahmoud:
if a client wasn't clear at the start, that's okay!

As long as you have an HOURLY contract.

Your problem is that you have a fixed-price contract. It is NOT okay for the client to ask you to do anything that was not explicitly written in the original task description.

You need to take control of this and be polite but professional. This client MAY NOT KNOW how inappropriate her requests are.

You basically need to hold the line and give her an opportunity to do the right thing.

"Janet: I think these are excellent ideas and I would be happy to work on them. If you will end the fixed-contract now, you can create an hourly contract and I will be able to work on these tasks."

Do NOT do any more work on the project until she does that.
She needs to release all the money in escrow to you and she needs to set up an hourly contract for yout to do further work. No matter what she says to you at this point, you need to politely repeat the same thing to her.

No more milestones.

If she has added a milestone that you haven't done any work on, that's great!

You can close the contract yourself. When you close the contract, you can refund that escrow money back to her.

[mahmoudswielam]

Dear Preston,

Thanks for your reply,
Well, she just copies and pastes the job description for every contract, both of the contract I have with her are with the same description. but the milestone was clear and I submitted it, After she paid the milestone, She added several milestones instead of closing the contract and said on a phone call that this is an extension. I told her that If we will work again, please let's work on an hourly contract. Now, she doesn't want to end the contract, and she threatens that she will address Upwork. 
Like If my only option now is to work on terms I don't want, against my well!
I can end both contracts with no extra fees for her to pay, And I think this will definitely ruin my JSS. But I don't know if that's the right move or if I shall wait for upwork support.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Now, she doesn't want to end the contract, and she threatens that she will address Upwork."

She can address Upwork all she wants.

You're not doing anything wrong.

Upwork is not going to do anything to you.

Upwork does not "punish" freelancers if they don't want to continue working for a client using a fixed-price contract. Upwork doesn't require freelancers to work for anybody.

I am sorry that this client is being unreasonable.

I really can't tell you what to do.

I can only tell you what I would do.

If I tell a client that she needs to close a fixed-price contract... and hire me with an hourly contract... but she doesn't do so...

Then it means she doesn't want my help.

I am not going to work on fixed-price milestones for an unreasonable client who doesn't respect my time or work.

[prestonhunter]

So here's where we're at:

This client doesn't owe you any money.

You did a milestone, or a few milestones, and you were paid for them.

You don't owe this client any work. You have not agreed to any additional milestones.

You have not clicked the "Submit Work and Request Payment" button for any milestones.

The client is not ignorant. She knows that you have requested that she start an hourly contract so that she can continue the work.

Is that all correct?

[mahmoudswielam]

Yes, we had a long call discussing the issues we have and she asked me If I wish to continue or raise my price, and I told her that I don't want to raise my price. I just want to work on an hourly contract.
She just changed 100% and told me she will make a dispute and hung up the call

[mahmoudswielam]

and I don't want to seem so sensitive or trying to make an advantage of this, but on the call, she said that I am "as an eastern" guy don't respect time, then after she hung up the call, she kept saying that I am trying to extort more money, although all I requested was to shift to an hourly contract before working on the new milestones.
I don't know if this should be considered as stereotypical or racist, but I should have replied aggressively, but now after she just texted me again. it all adds up

[prestonhunter]

The key factor here is that she doesn't comprehend or honor the concept of fixed-price contracts.

I have been there myself.

Most ALL of us who ever work on fixed-price contracts have been here.

I can assure you clients who don't understand or respect fixed-price contracts come from all backgrounds and ethnicities.... including mine and yours.

Don't take this personally. This is business.

Upwork has a strict rule about this: It is a violation of Upwork ToS for a client to ask for free work, which is what she was doing when she asked for out-of-scope work. And Upwork doesn't allow clients to force freelancers to work to continue working on a contract against their will. This goes for everybody, regardless of who they are or what they look like.

(As for what she called you... I live in Tempe, Arizona - the East Valley. So I'm an "eastern guy" myself.)

[prestonhunter]

Just ignore her for now.

The funny thing is that if she funded a milestone, the money is tied up in escrow unless you agree to refund it to her.

One thing that we haven't talked about is that she has the opportunity to come to the Community Forum and explain her situation. I don't think you should spend time talking to her right now... until she cools down.

But if you wanted to, you could tell her that if she wanted to explain her situation in the Community Forum, you would be willing to abide by whatever the Community (which is made up freelancers, clients and Upwork moderators) recommended by consensus.

[mahmoudswielam]

Truly, thanks for your support!

[lysis10]

---

Mahmoud S wrote:

Dear Preston,

Thanks for your reply,
Well, she just copies and pastes the job description for every contract, both of the contract I have with her are with the same description. but the milestone was clear and I submitted it, After she paid the milestone, She added several milestones instead of closing the contract and said on a phone call that this is an extension. I told her that If we will work again, please let's work on an hourly contract. Now, she doesn't want to end the contract, and she threatens that she will address Upwork. 
Like If my only option now is to work on terms I don't want, against my well!
I can end both contracts with no extra fees for her to pay, And I think this will definitely ruin my JSS. But I don't know if that's the right move or if I shall wait for upwork support.

---

If she already paid for what you did, your only option is to refund what is in escrow and close the contract yourself. 

[mahmoudswielam]

Thanks!
shouldn't I wait for Upwork support to decide? Also, I don't want to provoke her now, I think that she might get angrier and maybe give a really bad feedback, while If I waited for Upwork support, she might get suspended or banned from giving feedback on the contract.
I really don't know what is the wisest thing to do.

[prestonhunter]

re: "shouldn't I wait for Upwork support to decide?"

Decide what?

Nobody has asked Upwork to decide anything.

You will be better off if you and the client can work something out.

If you close the contract and refund all remaining escrow money to the client, then Upwork will NOT decide anything. A client can dispute if you don't want to refund escrow money. There is no way for a client to dispute if you refuse to take her money.

I totally understand if you are worried that she is upset about not getting her way... and might leave negative feedback.

Theoretically if you close the contract yourself there is a possibility that she won't leave feedback. But there is no way to know if that will happen.

Right now... the contract has not been closed... no feedback has been given... there is no rush to do anything...

[mahmoudswielam]

So, my client ended both projects with huge negative feedback.
I am a top-rated freelancer until now so I think I can hide one of the 2 negative feedbacks but I don't know what to do with the other.
And she asked for a refund of 100$, this project has a first milestone " character study" which I did and got paid for 50$, the next milestone -where she decided to extend the project-
worth 100$, which didn't get transferred to me when she ended the project as I didn't submit any work to the new milestone. So I got total 50$ of this project and she want me to refund 100$ which is more than the total budget paid on this project in the first place.
What should I do?
Thanks

[petra_r]

Isn't the refund request for funds still in Escrow? The client paid $ 100 into Escrow when she set the next milestone, so that is what she wants back. Also, the client's perspective is rather interesting too.

You can use your perk for one of the contracts, nothing you can do about the other (other than refund).

Use the perk on the BIG contract as that does more harm. If you refund the small one in full, the feedback vanishes, the effect on your JSS remains. You'll have to wait and see if that drops you below the 90% mark.

[mahmoudswielam]

Yes, I found out that they are still in escrow.
I think this is solved, I can refund her without losing money.
Could you advise me on what to do with the two horrible feedbacks

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

---

Mahmoud S wrote:

Could you advise me on what to do with the two horrible feedbacks

---

You can use your perk for one of the contracts, nothing you can do about the other (other than refund).

Use the perk on the BIG contract as that does more harm. If you refund the small one in full, the feedback vanishes, the effect on your JSS remains. You'll have to wait and see if that drops you below the 90% mark.

[mahmoudswielam]

but both of them will definitely affect my JSS? even if I hide one of the public feedback, am I right?

Thanks

[petra_r]

---

Mahmoud S wrote:

but both of them will definitely affect my JSS? even if I hide one of the public feedback, am I right?

Thanks

---

If you use your perk, it will exclude the contract from your JSS calculation. The hiding of the feedback is an optional extra, which you will obviously want to use.  As big contracts have a big effect on your JSS, you need to use it on the big contract.

Once you used the perk on the big contract, the small contract will still affect your JSS and if you do not refund it, the feedback will show.

[mahmoudswielam]

Thanks!
If I made a refund after it's closed and we both made feedbacks, it will be removed from my work history?

[petra_r]

---

Mahmoud S wrote:

If I made a refund after it's closed and we both made feedbacks, it will be removed from my work history?

---

Yes. The big one will say "This feedback has been removed" and the little one will simply vanish. DO remember the small one will still hit your JSS.

If you are going to do that, don't bother leaving any feedback, just refund. Your feedback won't show on the client's profile anyway if you've refunded in full. That means hers won't have time to appear on yours either in between you refunding and the refund having been processed which can take a couple of days. You want to limit the time it is shown on your profile.

[mahmoudswielam]

Well, I already responded to her feedback and made big signs in there as she did.
But I think I will refund the small amount and it will just vanish as you said.
I hope she doesn't think that she won, after all, every Dollar I would refund is on my expense which is unfair!
Thanks for your advice! 
you've been really helpful.

[prestonhunter]

If I go to Chipotle for lunch, I stand in line and then when I get to the counter I tell the workers what I want to eat. They make the food and then I pay for it. Then I can either sit down and eat it or I can take it home.

It is not acceptable for me to get my food and go sit down and tell the cashier that she can bring me the check when I'm done eating.

Mahmoud: I'm sorry that you had to deal with a client who was basically like a preposterous patron who would tell Chipotle when and how she was going to pay.

As freelancers, we want to provide excellent customer service. We want to help clients achieve their goals. But a client who wants to completely ignore how fixed-price contracts work, or how freelancing works in general, is obviously out of line.

[mahmoudswielam]

Thanks, your support is more than comforting in such distress. 
I am sad to compromise my time and effort just to keep my profile page glowy, but I am also happy I reached out and got valuable advice and sincere support from you guys.
My sincere gratitude to all of you!

[mahmoudswielam]

Hello again,
I made a total refund on the smaller contract, and still, the contract appears on my profile work history.
Will it disappear soon? or as the client ended the contract and gave feedback, it will not?
Please note that it didn't pass the 14 days window after the contract is ended.
Thanks 

[petra_r]

---

Mahmoud S wrote:

Hello again,
I made a total refund on the smaller contract, and still, the contract appears on my profile work history.
Will it disappear soon?

---

It'll take a couple of days. Have you requested your feedback removal on the big one yet?

[mahmoudswielam]

Thanks Petra,
I've requested that already, but the reply was that I need to wait until 14 days after the project end date. Of course, by that time, I will be out of the TOP RATED program but I've checked that I can send them a screenshot of the top-rated drop-out email along with the feedback removal request.
Does that make any sense? thanks again

[petra_r]

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Mahmoud S wrote:

I've requested that already, but the reply was that I need to wait until 14 days after the project end date. 

---

I understand what you're saying but the process does not make sense.... 

The 14 day thing is new and simply wrong. You may want to add your voice to this thread.