Sep 7, 2019 12:00:10 PM by Filippo P
Hello,
I'm new to upwork and I see lots of job postings that ask to violate 3rd party policies: they ask to create whatsapp bots, linkedin scrapers, paid wordpress themes for a lesser price, university homework and so on.
Should I report them? What is your feeling towards such kind of requests? Personally I do not like to contribute to such "grey to black" side of the force and I would like my work enviroment to be clear of such rubbish.
Regards,
F
Solved! Go to Solution.
Sep 8, 2019 02:45:50 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 02:49:50 PM by Filippo P
You guys are very nice, thank you all!
So I took a look at Upwork ToS and it is very clear:
You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate, instruct or induce others to use, the Site or Site Services for any activities that violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation; for any other illegal or fraudulent purpose or any purpose that is harmful to others; or to transmit, store, display, distribute or otherwise make available content that is illegal, fraudulent or harmful to others.
Then it lists examples in point 4.1.
The following [...] are prohibited [...] Seeking, offering, promoting, or endorsing and services, content, or activities that [...] would violate [...] (b) the terms of service of another website or any similar contractual obligations, or (c) the academic policies of any educational institution; [...]
And in point 4.3 explains what should be done:
If you become aware of any violation of these Site Terms or Use, you must immediately report it to Customer Service. You agree to assist us with any investigation we undertake and to take any remedial steps we require in order to correct a violation of these Site Terms of Use.
tldr Just to summarize, once again: Upwork Terms of Service obliges to report such activities and reserves the right to enforce its own Terms of Service.
Regards,
Filippo
Sep 7, 2019 12:22:45 PM by Mark F
Sep 8, 2019 11:35:00 AM by Wilfrid F
Well, I didn't know university homework was a violation of 3rd policy. If a client is looking for a freelancer doing homework at his place, we should report it? This is very embarrassing because I hit a client who needs a summary of an academic article in french and I was very excited by the job, but now he is asking me to voluntary make errors because otherwise her foreign language teacher could suspect him not being the author of the writing. So ethically it's clear for me that I cannot say yes. But what about if I propose him to write the best summary possible -I mean obviously free of voluntary error of any kind-, as any consciencious freelancer would do, since he will be then the "legal owner" of the writing and so he will be free to modify the summary according to his "special" neeeds? Or should I ignore him and reject the job?
Sep 8, 2019 11:45:22 AM by Petra R
Wilfrid F wrote:Well, I didn't know university homework was a violation of 3rd policy.
Of course it is. It is academic fraud.
Wilfrid F wrote:But what about if I propose him to write the best summary possible -I mean obviously free of voluntary error of any kind-, as any consciencious freelancer would do, since he will be then the "legal owner" of the writing and so he will be free to modify the summary according to his "special" neeeds? Or should I ignore him and reject the job?
Would you like to partake in fraud? No?
Then it should be clear what you should do, shouldn't it?
Sep 8, 2019 12:26:10 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 12:26:33 PM by Wilfrid F
Yes, you are right. Well, I will not answer him and reject the job, but it will affect my response time rate, maybe not? Or response rate is only affected when we receive an invitation to interview? In this case, my proposal has been accepted and he sent me a message, nothing more.
Let me make you an additional question : from an ethical point of view, so, what should we think about ghostwriter jobs ? To my judgement, this is pretty unethical too, but ghostwriting is a common and accepted practice.
Sep 8, 2019 12:50:35 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 12:51:46 PM by Preston H
Re: "Let me make you an additional question : from an ethical point of view, so, what should we think about ghostwriter jobs ? To my judgement, this is pretty unethical too, but ghostwriting is a common and accepted practice."
No, you may not report ghostwriting jobs on the basis that you personally think they are unethical.
ALL jobs on Upwork are unethical by someone's standards.
Upwork DOES NOT have a prohibition against job postings that are unethical in your opinion.
If you personally don't like a job posting, then ignore it.
Sep 8, 2019 01:13:57 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 01:17:35 PM by Wilfrid F
Preston, you missread me or you didn't read the conversation from the beginning.
I am agree that making a university homework for someone else is pretty unethical. But what is the difference with a ghostwriting job ? In both case, there is someone claiming to be the author of a writing made by someone else. That's all. My intention was not to offend ghostwriters or to report any ghostwriter job... Just trying to understand better where is the line between ethical/unethical job from a philosophical point of view and also, of course, because I don't to want to spend more connects applying a job here that could be violating Upwork rules.
Sep 8, 2019 01:19:45 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 01:24:19 PM by Petra R
wrote:
I am agree that making a university homework for someone else is pretty unethical.
It is not just "unethical" - it is academic fraud.
Wilfrid wrote:But what is the difference with a ghostwriting job ?
You can not seriously equate ghostwriting with academic fraud.
Which part of "fraud" (which academic fraud *IS* - it is also a terms of service violation) is difficult to understand?
Ghostwriting is not fraud, and not a terms of service violation.
In my opinion ghostwriting is not unethical either, but if you have an ethical problem with ghostwriting, don't take ghostwriting jobs.
Sep 8, 2019 01:29:04 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 01:35:50 PM by Preston H
Wilfred:
Don't worry. I have read the entire thread. And I do NOT think that you were trying to offend ghostwriters or anybody else. You're simply asking questions.
You believe that ghostwriting is unethical. (And you're right! It IS unethical.) (Altough people who believe it IS ethical are also correct.)
And you're wondering: Well, if doing somebody's university homework for them is unethical, and that's prohibited as an Upwork job... Then if ghostwriting is unethical, then why isn't THAT prohibited as well?
The answer is simple: Upwork DOES NOT PROHIBIT job postings to do unethical work. Nor does it prohibit "unethical job postings."
The reason that posting a job to do a university student's homework assignment for her is prohibited on Upwork is NOT because such a job is "unethical." It is because this type of work is specifically prohibited by Upwork.
There are many types of work that are prohibited on Upwork, but which are NOT unethical.
For example: Upwork prohibits job postings from people living in Syria.
That doesn't mean that it is "unethical" for people in Syria to work, or hire freelancers, or post job postings on freelance work platforms.
But these jobs ARE prohibited on Upwork.
Similarly, there are COUNTLESS job postings that Upwork DOES ALLOW, which ARE UNETHICAL. But Upwork DOES allow these jobs, because these jobs do NOT violate its ToS.
For example, there are job postings which clearly indicate that a client is willing to pay over $60 per hour to a freelancer. But such a pay rate is unethical by many people's standards. There are people who believe that as long as some people in the world live in poverty, nobody should be paid rates which represent such a huge disparity between rich and poor. There are other jobs which indicate that they want to pay very low pay rates - rates which ARE ALLOWED by Upwork ToS, but which many people believe are unethically low. Some people believe that a client based in the United States (for example) should NOT BE ALLOWED to pay an hourly rate that is below the U.S. federal minimum wage - even if the freelancer being hired lives in a place where such a rate would be far above their local minimum wage.
Some people believe that vehicles which use fossil fuels (such as gasoline) represent a grave thread to our world due to climate change. Some politicians have stated that they want to put oil company executives in jail. By the standards of these people, working for companies that promote the sale of fossil fuels or vehicles which utilize gasoline would be unethical. Nevertheless, Upwork DOES ALLOW these "unethical" job postings.
To summarize: Users are allowed to "flag as inappropriate" job posting which clearly violate Upwork ToS or stated Upwork policies. But users must not flag job postings because they personally believe a job posting is "unethical."
Sep 8, 2019 02:11:42 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 02:12:22 PM by Wilfrid F
Well, thanks for the answers Petra and Preston. Indeed, I was too much focusing on a wrong debate ethical/unethical, while it's just a matter of terms of service violation. To be clear, those Upwork terms of service are very dense and as a newcomer I am always anxious to violate a rule by error or misunderstanding.
I don't really think ghostwriting is something criticable per se since both side of the contract are free and I would gladly apply, but sometimes the purpose is depreciable. When a famous writer, for example, is well-known to never have written the major part of his best-sellers during his career, it's just something laughable and the vulgus should not be deceived, but this is just my opinion...
Sep 8, 2019 04:21:52 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 04:58:23 PM by Renata S
Wilfrid F wrote:Well, I didn't know university homework was a violation of 3rd policy. If a client is looking for a freelancer doing homework at his place, we should report it? This is very embarrassing because I hit a client who needs a summary of an academic article in french and I was very excited by the job, but now he is asking me to voluntary make errors because otherwise her foreign language teacher could suspect him not being the author of the writing. So ethically it's clear for me that I cannot say yes. But what about if I propose him to write the best summary possible -I mean obviously free of voluntary error of any kind-, as any consciencious freelancer would do, since he will be then the "legal owner" of the writing and so he will be free to modify the summary according to his "special" neeeds? Or should I ignore him and reject the job?
Wilfred,
I'm having a little trouble understanding what is difficult about this distinction. The terms are simple: if you are a student and you hand in someone else's work (including work you paid someone else to do) to an instructor (or a graduate advisory panel) to evaluate, you are commiting academic fraud. There's nothing particularly "philosophical" about it. In elementary school, this used to simply be understood as "cheating" and "lying about it". If the client is asking you to make mistakes to make it look more authentic, this should be a huge red flag. The student is asking you to prepare the summary for him so that he can hand it in for his course. Is there something you didn't understand about this? And is there something you don't understand about this being academic fraud?
The difference with people hiring ghostwriters outside of academic institutions is that they are not submitting work for evaluation by an academic institution in exchange for a degree. A degree is supposed to carry some indication of what you know and the fact that some academic institution has given their seal of approval that you do indeed know it.
The type of academic fraud I run into frequently on the platform is people asking freelancers to do graduate-level aeronautic engineering and nursing homerwork and stuff like that. Personally, I don't like to think about those people being out in the world when I'm sitting in a plane or if I have to go to a medical clinic.
I'm not sure why UpWork has chosen to include it in the policy, but it's on the same level as graphic designers creating fake medical school certificates and passports.
Sep 8, 2019 12:35:54 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 12:40:25 PM by Filippo P
Ok, I understand the general policy here is no action rather than report.
Of course I cannot report all the job postings I do not like...
Sep 8, 2019 02:05:36 PM by Christine A
Filippo P wrote:Ok, I understand the general policy here is no action rather than report.
No, that's not the general policy at all, and Preston does not speak for the community as a whole. Academic fraud means that you're helping someone cheat; there's no grey area there, it's just plain wrong and the institution that the student goes to would expel them on the spot. I and many others would - and do - report "projects" such as those.
Sep 8, 2019 02:08:02 PM by Preston H
re: "No, that's not the general policy at all, and Preston does not speak for the community as a whole."
Look at the date stamp.
Filippo was replying to Mark's post.
Sep 8, 2019 02:45:50 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 02:49:50 PM by Filippo P
You guys are very nice, thank you all!
So I took a look at Upwork ToS and it is very clear:
You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate, instruct or induce others to use, the Site or Site Services for any activities that violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation; for any other illegal or fraudulent purpose or any purpose that is harmful to others; or to transmit, store, display, distribute or otherwise make available content that is illegal, fraudulent or harmful to others.
Then it lists examples in point 4.1.
The following [...] are prohibited [...] Seeking, offering, promoting, or endorsing and services, content, or activities that [...] would violate [...] (b) the terms of service of another website or any similar contractual obligations, or (c) the academic policies of any educational institution; [...]
And in point 4.3 explains what should be done:
If you become aware of any violation of these Site Terms or Use, you must immediately report it to Customer Service. You agree to assist us with any investigation we undertake and to take any remedial steps we require in order to correct a violation of these Site Terms of Use.
tldr Just to summarize, once again: Upwork Terms of Service obliges to report such activities and reserves the right to enforce its own Terms of Service.
Regards,
Filippo
Sep 8, 2019 03:26:37 PM by Christine A
Preston H wrote:re: "No, that's not the general policy at all, and Preston does not speak for the community as a whole."
Look at the date stamp.
Filippo was replying to Mark's post.
Okay, sorry for misreading the date stamps, but I still disagreed with your posts and your advice.
Sep 8, 2019 03:44:13 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 03:48:27 PM by Petra R
Preston H wrote:Then tell us: What is your position on these topics?
Leave it be. You are forever doing the "we / us" thing, pretending that you are speaking for the freelancers, the clients, Upwork itself even.
You're not. You have repeatedly defended academic fraud as nothing to concern oneself with in the past and the "ALL jobs on Upwork are unethical by someone's standards." nonsense is not getting any more relevant the more it is regurgitated.
Sep 8, 2019 05:22:11 PM Edited Sep 8, 2019 07:08:12 PM by John K
Petra R wrote:You have repeatedly defended academic fraud as nothing to concern oneself with in the past and the "ALL jobs on Upwork are unethical by someone's standards." nonsense is not getting any more relevant the more it is regurgitated.
To which I'd add, what's relevant is whether a job violates one's own ethical standards, or Upwork's User Agreement & ToS. I can't resist pasting in possibly my favorite Shakespeare quote,
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Sep 8, 2019 03:52:24 PM by Christine A
Preston H wrote:Then tell us: What is your position on these topics?
I believe that I was already pretty clear about my opinion. Sorry that I didn't have the inclination to write an unnecessarily lengthy post on the matter.
Oct 28, 2019 10:46:24 AM by William F
I am having a related issue, which admittedly I may have walked right into.
A client is requesting me to publish a wikipedia page, a simple proposal which I accepted.
There was no inherent issue with the proposal, but it became increasingly apparent later that the client could not furnish the material which I specified was required from him/her when I accepted the proposal.
Without this material, his/her project would violate wikipedia's policies.
The client kept pushing me forward despite my repeated warnings, so I attempted to publish the article.
Then the Wikipedia article gets deleted, to nobodies surprise.
My issue now is how we resolve the issue of payment, do I
A. receive nothing, as I could not publish the article on the third party site.
B. Provide the draft and recieve payment because the user unintentionally violated Upwork TOS (4.1) for posting a project that breached a third party policy- directly resulting the projects failure.
I will of course try to negotiate with the client, but should the negotiations break down I need to be absolutely shure what my rights as a Freelancer user are.
Oct 28, 2019 10:58:45 AM by Petra R
William F wrote:
A client is requesting me to publish a wikipedia page,
Writing Wikipedia pages is dodgy at the best of times...
I'd (personally) walk away from this.
William F wrote:B. Provide the draft and recieve payment because the user unintentionally violated Upwork TOS (4.1) for posting a project that breached a third party policy- directly resulting the projects failure.
You violated the 3rd party policy, not the client.
Walk away and stay away from Wikipedia writing "jobs."
Oct 28, 2019 12:00:48 PM Edited Oct 28, 2019 12:01:13 PM by Vladimir G
Hi William,
I'm sorry about the concern and issue you're having on your contract. Regarding the job and work provided being in line with Upwork ToS, our team will review all the details and follow up to advise directly.
Regarding your payment for the work you provided, note that, in general, if you can't resolve the issue amicably, we do have a dispute process in place in order to resolve any disagreement. Feel free to follow up if you'd like to receive more advice from us moderators and experienced users in the forums. We strongly advise against proceeding with providing work a freelancer suspects to be in violation of Upwork or other company's ToS and do encourage freelancers to reach out to us here in the forums, social media or directly contact and share all the information with Customer Support.
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