whats the no 1 reason why you will wanna leave upwork?

[45449d47]

as a freelancer, whats the no 1 reason why you will wanna leave upwork and go for another freelancer marketplace?

I know theres pro and cons about upwork, but this time I wanna know about your opinion on this

[prestonhunter]

Well, I'm not interested in leaving Upwork.

But if you are wondering what I think the number 1 biggest problem is?

When that question comes up, what comes to my mind is the fixed-price loophole.

This refers to the fact that a client can hire a freelancer to do a fixed-price task, and then the freelancer can finish the task, and the client can avoid every actually paying for the work simply by continuously clicking a button "Request changes." Most clients don't abuse this loophole/button. But some do. Some clients attempt to use it to manipulate freelancers into doing free work - doing work beyond the original written task description. Inexperienced freelancers often struggle with such situations.

[mariannefrca]

Hi Preston ! 

How would you handle the situation where a client contacts you weeks after (he already paid the 1st time) and wants you to check a revised version for free ?  Do you block him ? Flag it to Upwork ? 

Thank you ! 

[jeremiah-brown]

I'm not Preston, but what I do is outline the number of revisions a client is allowed as part of that job.

For example, I state something like "I provide up to 3 revisions for this project - if further revisions are needed, those revisions will require an additional charge to cover the additional time needed to perform them".

I also add in a note that I maintain a copy of the customers file for up to XX months after the contract is closed.  If the client wants an additional revision within that timeframe, I can simply pull up their files.  Once past that retention period, the customer is responsible for providing the files necessary to make additoinal revisions.  If no files can be provided, the customer must decide if its worth paying to have the project duplicated - keep in mind, this may or may not work for your particular specialty. 

[the-right-writer]

I'm not Preston either but here is my opinion. Did you complete the work? Did you receive the money? Was the concontract closed?

If the above are true, I would politely tell the client that you would like to work with them again if they want to establish another contract.  Don't do free work.

[mariannefrca]

Hi Jeanne,

Yes to all !  I answered this and I am waiting for his answer.

This client seems to be an agency. He told me that the initial clients wanted to add some texts.

To me, it requires that I should get another contract and a funded milestone.

Thank you Jeanne ! 

[jeremiah-brown]

I have no desire to leave, but there are some things I think could be improved

1. Upwork's handling of payments (processing time mostly) - takes weeks to get paid when technology can do it in days.

2. Fixed price contracts - needs better payment protection, Upwork needs to limit the amount of freedom a client has to manipulate/abuse these contracts.

3. Verify clients the same way freelancers are verified.

4. Ban job flipping/farming - some people claim it drives prices upwards, but long term it decays the quality and trustworthiness of the site altogether

5. End the legal scare tactics and threats of lawsuit when someone is simply trying to abide by the terms of service.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Verify clients the same way freelancers are verified."

I understand the problems and frustrations that have led you and some other freelancers to think about this.

But personally I do not think that Upwork as a whole or freelancers specifically would benefit from increased client verification.

The analogy is often made to a customer who goes into a store... He isn't asked to verify his identity. He is allowed to look around, and even purchase items, without verifying his identity. It is commonplace on the Internet for people to be able to purchase goods and services with no identification other than a valid credit card.

[jeremiah-brown]

Yes, and I can agree with that - except that as a store owner, I am taking 100% of the risk and 100% of the revenue. 

Upwork takes 20% of all transactions to facilitate business relationships/transactions in a safe and secure environment.  This implies that part of the 20% I give up on every job goes towards protecting both myself and the client.

The outward facing value propositions on Upwork's own site says:

1. Proof of quality

2. No cost until you hire

3. Safe and secure


Another section says:
"Get paid securely" - "from contract to payment, we help you work safely and get paid securely"

Another says:
"Protected payments" - "Get paid the way you want, secure and fully protected"

Another says:
"Help with disputes" - "we'll step in and help you resolve a tricky situation"

Another:
"Trusted jobs" - "We use various tools to detect and reduce fraud with a dedicated team 24/7"


If I were to approach Upwork and read all of those bullet points, I would believe that:
1.  My work is safe and secure
2. I will get paid for my time
3. Upwork will assist me if there are issues
4. The amount of fraud and scams are controlled/minimized
5. That a portion of my 20% fee is taken for their profit margin as well as to cover the payroll of those performing these implied services.

Now, Upwork does provide all of these services as advertised - I don't dispute that.  I do, however, think they could do a better job at a few of them - which is why I have noted them in my reply.  Not verifying clients caters to business volume rather than business quality.  You can have 100 unverified clients give you $1 each and make $100, or you can have 5 verified clients paying $20 each, and make $100.  The volume of clients makes the site more attractive to prospective freelance talent as well as prospective clients.  Herd mentality.

Perhaps instead of ID verification Upwork could put a hold on someone's card like they do at a gas pump.  The money is held in the person's own account, but if it isnt there, they cannot initiate a hire for that job?  There are better and faster ways than the whole verify an ID process that still verify that a client isn't having a freelancer work without compensation.

  

[martina_plaschka]

Yes, and I can agree with that - except that as a store owner, I am taking 100% of the risk and 100% of the revenue. 

You show me the store owner that does not pay rent, supplies, electricity, advertising, cleaning. Last time I heard that is the cost of running a business. 

[jeremiah-brown]

Revenue is what covers rent, electricity, supplies, advertising.  It is an umbrella term used to describe the cost of doing business.  For context, if I am a business owner, I take 100% of the revenue earned from doing business.  I can also control how I allocate those funds.  If I want to spend 20% of my revenue to reducing risk, I can.  If I want to spend 50% of my revenue to reducing risk, I can.

If I am performing work on a site, such as Upwork, I have no say in how they use the revenue collected from my 20% fee.  In order to do that, I would need a controlling share in company stock or make a suggestion about the items I feel they can improve (but they are under no obligation to act on those).

Revenue and profit are not the same. 

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Jeremiah B wrote:

If I am performing work on a site, such as Upwork, I have no say in how they use the revenue collected from my 20% fee. 

---

That's correct, you don't have any say in how Upwork uses the revenue that they earn from your service charges. Do you think that any of your own clients should have a say in how YOU spend the money that you earn? 

[jeremiah-brown]

Not sure what the point of this comment is.  My original comment to the OP is about things I dislike about Upwork.  I listed items that I think they can improve upon.  They are my opinions, based upon my experience using the site.  Upwork has no obligation to listen or act upon my opinions, and I have never said that they should be.  Whether or not a client should have any say in how I spend my money is irelevant to my opinion on what I feel Upwork could improve.

[martina_plaschka]

Revenue is what covers rent, electricity, supplies, advertising.  It is an umbrella term used to describe the cost of doing business. 

Has nobody ever said. The cost of doing business is called expenses. 

Revenue and profit are not the same. 

Yep.

If I am performing work on a site, such as Upwork, I have no say in how they use the revenue collected from my 20% fee. 

Personally, I don't care how they use my fee, and I don't feel the need to control that. I also don't care what the electricity provider does with my money, or what the bank does with the fees I pay. I don't even know how this is relevant to the discussion. 

[jeremiah-brown]

I am simply responding to your comment.

My original reply was to Preston's analogy of a birck and mortar store.  If I owned a brick and mortar store, I take 100% of the risk and 100% of the revenue.  Upwork is a slightly different model in that it brings business owners (freelancers) and clients (customers) together, and charges a fee for that facilitation.  Upwork is not the entity performing any of the actual work that clients (customers) are paying for.  Upwork is also not assuming 100% of the risk for the work that freelancers perform for clients - they only assume partial risk in the form of lost fees, word of mouth, etc. 

Upwork is just a glorified middleman that profits from its business model of casting a wide net bringing jobs and the people looking for those jobs, then superconcentrating them into a central location to make freelancing easy to do. 

[wlyonsatl]

Martina,

Do you think store owners who pay "rent, supplies, electricity", etc. have a major risk of not receiving the services they pay for. Most businesses I have worked in the US and other countries pay for most of the goods and services you mention after they've received those goods and services, it really isn't useful to say they face substantial risk when they pay those invoices. 

[feed_my_eyes]

I want Upwork to spend more of my fees on advertising to attract more clients, not on "protecting" freelancers who can't be bothered to read the ToS or use any common sense.

---

Jeremiah B wrote:

Perhaps instead of ID verification Upwork could put a hold on someone's card like they do at a gas pump.  The money is held in the person's own account, but if it isnt there, they cannot initiate a hire for that job?  

---

For fixed price projects, they do "hold" the client's payment - that's what the escrow fund is for. It still doesn't prevent chargebacks or prevent clients from using stolen credit cards (just like someone would be able to use a stolen credit card at a gas station).

[jeremiah-brown]

Yes, I want Upwork to attract more clients too.  However, what good is it when those extra 1000 clients are scammers?  I would rather see Upwork focus their time on reducing scam posts than the constant stream of "improvements" like certificates, hand holding for how to write a proposal, and all of these webinars that highlight outlier freelancers who acheived huge earnings.  As mentioned, this is something that I think Upwork can do better.


Holds - Thats not always true though.  I lost an entire project to a client who had money in escrow.  I was told that the clients method of payment was declined and the money that I was already paid was promptly clawed back from me.  

If the money was truly being held in escrow, it would have cleared the client's banking institution.  If the funds were cleared, they should be no different than liquid assets, not subject to reversal caused by insufficient funds.  

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Jeremiah B wrote:

If the money was truly being held in escrow, it would have cleared the client's banking institution.  If the funds were cleared, they should be no different than liquid assets, not subject to reversal caused by insufficient funds.  

---

If escrow is funded, it means that the client WAS charged. However, the client can still contact their bank or credit card provider for up to 6 months after a charge has gone through, and the bank will take the money back from Upwork - they do not consult Upwork about it, they just go ahead and take it - so Upwork has to take the money back from you. Chargebacks are a risk of doing business, no matter what platform you use or whether you charge clients directly, and there's nothing in Upwork's terms of service that provides you with a guarantee against this happening.

I've only ever requested a chargeback once myself, because I paid for a service that was never provided. My UK bank required me to provide proof that I didn't receive the service, but I've been told by Americans that in the U.S., you can initiate a chargeback just by asking for one. Upwork is not responsible for that.

[jeremiah-brown]

Sure and thats acceptable.  However, the project that I worked on the money was in escrow, I submitted work, the escrow was released to me as a milestone payment, then the client's account was suspended by Upwork because their method of payment was declined. 

The money that I was already paid was clawed back from me.  This means that the escrow was not a fully cleared transaction.  It is simply a pending transaction.  A hold until it is released to the freelancer.

I am suggesting that Upwork could improve on this by completing a point of sale for escrow funding.  Require a fully cleared escrow payment so that in the event that a client's profile is suspended or their card is declined after months of work, the freelancer isn't left high and dry with nothing to show for.  A freelancer should not have funds clawed back from a paid and accepted milestone if a client's card is declined after those funds were cleared.

[a_lipsey]

Jeremiah, I am sorry but you are confused. As a client, I can tell you, I cannot even send a fixed price contract without funding a milestone, and YES, the funds immediately leave my bank account. That's what funding the milestone is - it's a cleared transaction. You are confusing a chargeback with escrow being funded. The money has already left my account and I have no control over it except to release it or request a refund from the freelancer OR ask my bank for a chargeback. Either way, it's a cleared transaction. 

I suggest you find a small fixed price contract to hire someone for so you can actually see how it works before claiming it works another way. You may find it enlightening. 

[jeremiah-brown]

No, I am not confusing anything.  I am speaking from experience.

I performed work on a fixed price contract.  I submitted work for a milestone.  Client accepted work, signed off on milestone, payment was released.

I then began work on the next milestone.  During this time, the client's account was suspended.  Then the client's method of payment was declined - well after I was payed.  Because of this, the funds that had been released to me were promptly clawed back and I was out the work that I rightfully performed for that milestone with no payment for my services that were rightfully and wholly rendered.

[a_lipsey]

---

Jeremiah B wrote:

No, I am not confusing anything.  I am speaking from experience.

I performed work on a fixed price contract.  I submitted work for a milestone.  Client accepted work, signed off on milestone, payment was released.

I then began work on the next milestone.  During this time, the client's account was suspended.  Then the client's method of payment was declined - well after I was payed.  Because of this, the funds that had been released to me were promptly clawed back and I was out the work that I rightfully performed for that milestone with no payment for my services that were rightfully and wholly rendered.

---

That's not a charge declined. It's a chargeback. 

Go hire a freelancer for a fixed $20 contract to do something simple. You will see it is impossible to even send the contract without the first milestone fully funded. When you hit send the money LEAVES your account. It's gone. The only way to claw it back is a chargeback, which is completely different than a declined payment. 

If the client's account was suspended then it's likely there was some fraud they were investigating. 

[jeremiah-brown]

Upwork told me that they had suspended the client's profile because their method of payment was declined after the milestone had been payed out.  That was what they told me back when this happened.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Jeremiah B wrote:

Upwork told me that they had suspended the client's profile because their method of payment was declined after the milestone had been payed out.  That was what they told me back when this happened.

---

If the client's card is declined, then the milestone doesn't get funded in the first place. Why not try it for yourself and see whether the money is taken directly from your account or not, since you refuse to believe people with hiring experience? The only other exception - if it wasn't a chargeback - is if the client tried to pay you with a bonus instead of funding the escrow account.

[a_lipsey]

---

Jeremiah B wrote:

Upwork told me that they had suspended the client's profile because their method of payment was declined after the milestone had been payed out.  That was what they told me back when this happened.

---

That doesn't mean that the payment you received wasn't actually processed. What you were told could mean a number of things:

1. Client has other hourly projects, and their CC was over the limit and couldn't be charged. 

2. Client has other hourly project, and CC is expired, and couldn't be charged.

3. Client tried to fund your 2nd milestone, and couldn't be charged (although this isn't likely because funding subsequent milestones isn't automatic).

4. Client tried to fund yoru 2nd milestone, the CC was finally flagged as fraudulent, and client was suspended. Subsequently, your 1st milestone was a chargeback. 

What CS told you doesn't equate with: the first milestone wasn't actually withdrawn from the client's account. It was. Something else happened afterwards that caused your problems. But regardless, Upwork already does actually withdraw the money, as you have suggested they change to doing. It's already done that way. And it goes to Christine's point: all businesses deal with fraud and loss - including freelance businesses like you and me. 

[roberty1y]

As a client, I can tell you, I cannot even send a fixed price contract without funding a milestone, and YES, the funds immediately leave my bank account. 

Yes, that's how I thought it worked, except for bunuses - they're apparently not guaranteed.

In the case of chargeback, it's a matter between the client and their bank. Upwork has no say in it. The only way it could ensure freelancers didn't lose out when this happens would be to refund any money lost through chargeback. This would open up a whole new field of opportunities for fraudsters.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Robert Y wrote:

As a client, I can tell you, I cannot even send a fixed price contract without funding a milestone, and YES, the funds immediately leave my bank account. 

Yes, that's how I thought it worked, except for bunuses - they're apparently not guaranteed.

---

No, there's no payment guarantee for bonuses, and Upwork makes this clear under their payment terms. I can see why they thought that it wouldn't be necessary; bonuses are supposed to be voluntarily paid by a client for a job well done, so why would a client offer to pay a bonus and then claw it back? Upwork couldn't have foreseen that scammers would one day being offering to pay ONLY via bonus, and that it wouldn't occur to freelancers that it's odd to get a huge bonus before doing any work.

[a_lipsey]

---

Robert Y wrote:

Yes, that's how I thought it worked, except for bunuses - they're apparently not guaranteed.

---

I've issued a few bonuses, and I am fairly certain the funds left my account immediately as well. I just issued one the other day, in lieu of opening a separate contract for someone I work hourly with, since she did a fixed project that was separate from our normal work. So I just sent the payment via bonus. Fairly certain I saw the funds leave my account immediately. 

Bonuses can't be guaranteed because they aren't in escrow. It's literally just the client's word they will do it. It's like offering someone a big tip to do something...Only slightly better than "exposure"? 

[wlyonsatl]

Amanda,

Under true escrow neither the person providing funding for escrow nor their bank can simply reverse the payment of those funds.

For example, if clients were able to send payment for escrow to Upwork via wire transfer neither the client nor the bank could simply reverse the transaction. 

Credit card payments are reversible. Not all other payment methods are so easily reversed.

[a_lipsey]

Hi Will, the point is still that the funds were not clawed back because a credit card was declined. The funds in escrow were in escrow and were released and in the freelancer's account. The assertion was that the payment of those escrow funds had failed after they had already been deposited in his account. 

[mwiggenhorn]

And actually, we really don't know what Upwork spends on marketing to clients.

[wlyonsatl]

Sure we do, Mary W.

Look at Page 3 of Upwork's most recent 10-Q report to the US Securities and Exchange commision on sec.gov.

The number was $57.6 million for the three months ended March 31, 2022.

[jeremiah-brown]

Did you happen to catch what the profit and loss statement said?  Just curious

[wlyonsatl]

Christine,

With true escrow, the person who funds the escrow loses control of those funds until certain agreed terms and conditions are met. At that point, the neutral party holding the funds releases them.

Upwork is such a neutral party, to a certain extent, but what Upwork calls "escrow" is not really escrow. It's an accounting entry that may or may not survive subsequent actions by the client or the owner of the person whose credit card was charged for that "escrow." And Upwork also reserves to itself the ability to make decisions about how much, when and to whom such "escrow" will be distributed, if the funds in escrow are what bankers call "good funds."

As a result, as I'm sure you know, "escrowed" amounts related to Upwork contracts may or may not actually be paid out to the freelancers who perform the services required under those contracts.

[the-right-writer]

"This implies that part of the 20% I give up on every job goes towards protecting both myself and the client."

The word "implies" explains a lot. Why would you think that? Nowhere in the TOS does it say that.

"3. Safe and secure"

What business site doesn't say something very similar? If you follow the rules, you are unlikely to be scammed. The chargebacks can happen anywhere online or in the physical world. However, paying close attention to the rules and the scam advice will prevent 99% of the scams.

"Another section says:
"Get paid securely" - "from contract to payment, we help you work safely and get paid securely"

Again, following the rules will prevent the vast majority of people from being scammed. If you use the tracker and milestones appropriately, the risk is minimal.  If you don't learn the rules, you don't learn the scams, and if you don't pay attention you will be scammed.

[jeremiah-brown]

"This implies that part of the 20% I give up on every job goes towards protecting both myself and the client."

The word "implies" explains a lot. Why would you think that? Nowhere in the TOS does it say that. - Upwork charges a fee in order to fund their various operations.  Money collected in the form of revenue is distributed to various functions of the business such as customer service, website maintenence, paying staff to review disputes, paying staff to look into reported scam posts, pay for accounting, and pay for all of the other things associated with running their business.

So yes, it is very much implied that a portion of my 20% goes towards funding the functions that are advertised on their website.  It is so much implied that the word FACT might be a better term.

Whether the terms of service outline this or not is irrelevant.    

"3. Safe and secure"

What business site doesn't say something very similar? If you follow the rules, you are unlikely to be scammed. The chargebacks can happen anywhere online or in the physical world. However, paying close attention to the rules and the scam advice will prevent 99% of the scams.

- Upwork advertises that their site is safe and secure.  Once again, it is implied to a new freelancer that the site is a safe and secure place to do business.  My opinion is that Upwork can improve in this area, hence the reason I noted this in my original comment.  

I said nothing about following the rules and have said nothing about chargebacks - there are plenty of users who do follow the rules and are scammed by "clients" and even sanctioned by Upwork.  

"Another section says:
"Get paid securely" - "from contract to payment, we help you work safely and get paid securely"

Again, following the rules will prevent the vast majority of people from being scammed. If you use the tracker and milestones appropriately, the risk is minimal.  If you don't learn the rules, you don't learn the scams, and if you don't pay attention you will be scammed.

- Again, this point has nothing to do with following or not following the rules.  It is outlining what I think Upwork can improve upon.  Scammers do not care about "the rules".  Scammers look for ways to circumvent "the rules" so that they can continue to take advantage of unsuspecting freelancers. 

I feel Upwork can improve in this area - as outlined in my original comment.  One idea is to place a hold on a clients method of payment - if client's project budget is $1000, then verify and hold 50% of those funds so that a freelancer is not hit with a chargeback from a deadbeat client after the work has been performed and submitted. 

[wlyonsatl]

I'd rather see Upwork require clients - or at least the newest ones - use payment methods other than credit cards to reduce the frequency of chargebacks.

The majority of contract values on Upwork (75% as of the first three months of 2022) are from US clients. These clients - and others, no doubt - can easily use other payment systems that are less prone to chargebacks than credit cards. New clients should be forced to use these other payment systems until they build a reputation on Upwork for fair treatment of freelancers. 

[jeremiah-brown]

Gotta love that "zero fraud liability" clause.  All a client has to do is claim that the work they received was not what they asked for and they are absolved of payment and still get to keep the work.

[ericaandrews]

I would agree with this except for the fact that this marketplace involves CONTRACTS, not "cash and carry" products.  The client is not just 'buying' something like a hamburger at a Wendy's.  They are entering into a contract, and an agreement to pay.  A contract is no more 'valid' than the 2 parties ON the contract.  A contract doesn't work when one of the parties basically gets to 'remain anonymous' due to lack of identity verification.   Upwork can't 'mediate' or resolve a payment dispute when a client fails to pay if Upwork didn't even bother to find out WHO the client really is in the first place.  If one party on the contract's identity has been verified, and the other party's identity could be fake, false, or made up, the entire contract becomes literally unenforceable.  A fake, meaningless contract. I can promise you any time I've agreed to a contract on paper or another method/platform 'outside' of Upwork, the other party (the client) has always been required to show me identitifcation and verification of WHO they are before I sign any contract.   If they can't 'disclose' who they are, then I would not work with them.  In addition, with a labor shortage, UW isn't  doing those seeking skilled labor any favors by causing freelancers, who provide the primary product - the LABOR, to either leave the site or avoid signing up altogether due to the site not offering at least some basic assurances that the 'client'  a freelancer is dealing is really who they say they are.  UW should be doing more to make freelancers that have highly sought-after or rare skills want to join the platform, not avoid it because 50-70% of the job posts going up these days are from fake accounts easily created because no ID check was required.  Without an ID check, we don't even know if all of these 'clients' are even of legal age to sign or agree to a contract, making the contract null and void if some kid was the 'client' that signed the contract.  Judging from all of the 'video game' currency scam jobs on this site, it appears lots of kids and teenagers with their Mom's stolen credit card account for a significant portion of these fake 'clients' playing on around on the site and ripping people off to steal little video game tokens.   New clients being able to 'look' is fine, but they should not be able to post jobs or contact any freelancers until their ID has been verified. Yes, when you walk in a car lot nobody asks for your ID just to 'look around', but the minute you ask for a 'test drive' or to 'buy' the car, the first thing you have to hand over is your ID before they let you get in that car.  There's a reason for that. I don't know any place that allows you to buy/rent something on a contract/lease without showing ID, simply because you flash a  'valid credit card'.  The contract has no value or integrity if the identity of one or both parties is unknown or unverified.