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b3a85fff
Community Member

Did my job posting get banned because it had Western Union/Moneygram in the title?

Basically I want a Philippines-based person to receive my customer payments from the Philippines, then transfer those payments to me. If you're wondering, this is for when my online business (which targets customers from the US & other first-world countries) doesn't have internet for a long time and I'm losing money, not getting online sales.

 

 

27 REPLIES 27
petra_r
Community Member


Enrico C wrote:

Basically I want a Philippines-based person to receive my customer payments from the Philippines, then transfer those payments to me. If you're wondering, this is for when my online business (which targets customers from the US & other first-world countries) doesn't have internet for a long time and I'm losing money, not getting online sales.


Sounds like a scam, and any freelancer who'd get involved in receiving money and forwarding it would be violating the terms of service of the site anyway.


There is literally no legitimate reason for such a "job" at all.

b3a85fff
Community Member

You responded that way because I wasn't specific. I'll be specific next time. Apologies.

 

"Sounds like a scam,.."

 

> It's not. If my internet is down, I need SMS and Western Union/Moneygram to accept payments, since they're offline.

 

"...and any freelancer who'd get involved in receiving money and forwarding it would be violating the terms of service of the site anyway.


There is literally no legitimate reason for such a "job" at all."

 

> I dare you to watch me work with someone and see how nice and rewarding I can be. This is incredibly uncomfortable. But you didn't know. I will be more specific next time and I hope that specific-ness will result in a more positive response from you.

 

 

 

b3a85fff
Community Member

Here's what I reported your comment for to a moderator (keep in mind I'm blaming myself mostly)

 

**edited for Community Guidelines**

prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "Did my job posting get banned because it had Western Union/Moneygram in the title?"

 

Quite possibly.

But your post also could have been deleted due to the job description.

 

The job you are describing may be problematic for Upwork's automated job-checking filters.

Possibly it was automatically deleted.

Possibly it was automatically flagged and then manually deleted by an Upwork employee.

 

The problem is that Upwork's ToS rules prohibit freelancers and clients from exchanging funds through any means other than through Upwork.

 

So if your job description states that you will send payments to freelancers through Western Union/Moneygram, then right there, that is a violation of Upwork ToS.

 

Technically I updated this. Haven't posted it, but basically I'll pay them through Upwork. I just need them to 1) Accept payments via Western Union/Moneygram > Transfer those payments to me either via WU/MG or bank transfer. 2) Once that's done, when it's time to pay them, I'll pay them via Upwork. Jennifer M this might enlighten you.

 

Preston, do you think this still violates ToS?

lysis10
Community Member

lol Tax evasion is so sweet and precious.

b3a85fff
Community Member

How so? I'm just new to business. I'll probably "file these" as legitimate earnings. I get this feeling that you're accusing me, but since I don't know much, enlighten me.

b3a85fff
Community Member

I reported your comment to a moderator, not sure if they'll side with me, but here's what I put:

 

"I see I had a hand in her replying like this. I should've been more specific. But this is my first time with this type of delegation. I think she just accused me of tax evasion without properly making my case more specific.**edited for Community Guidelines**

re: "Technically I updated this. Haven't posted it, but basically I'll pay them through Upwork. I just need them to 1) Accept payments via Western Union/Moneygram > Transfer those payments to me either via WU/MG or bank transfer. 2) Once that's done, when it's time to pay them, I'll pay them via Upwork... Preston, do you think this still violates ToS?"

 

Short answer:

Yes: That still violates ToS. Sorry.

 

Longer answer:

I don't blame you if you think that this is confusing and frustrating.

 

Upwork has rules about money transfers and it just doesn't make any exceptions, even when those exceptions might seem "logical."

 

So, yes, I think Upwork's employees as well as Upwork's automated algorithms would think that what you are describing violates Upwork ToS.

 

This DOES NOT MEAN that you intend to do anything wrong, or that plan to do anything illegal. It means that Upwork, like any business, has limitations.

 

For example, a bank, can store money for you, and maybe it can store money for an unlimited time. But Upwork is not a bank, and it will NOT store money in a freelancer's account for more than 6 months. That doesn't mean that a bank is doing something wrong or illegal by storing money for a longer period of time. It means that Upwork and a bank are different, and both of them have limitations with regards to what they can do.

 

Upwork does not want to have money transferred from a client to a freelancer, or from a freelancer to a client, using any means other than itself. So Upwork does NOT want to have payments from a freelancer go to a client through a bank transfer.

 

Similarly:

If a freelancer needed to buy a widget at a local store for $150, you would NOT be allowed to send a check or PayPal payment to the freelancer to reimburse the freelancer for buying the widget. You would ONLY be allowed to use the Pay Bonus or Reimburse Expenses tool built into Upwork. Even though that would mean that 20% of your payment would be kept by Upwork as a fee.

 

So yes, you end up getting into some things that may make no sense when you are thinking about standard business practices, but these are Upwork's rules.

re: 

Similarly:

If a freelancer needed to buy a widget at a local store for $150, you would NOT be allowed to send a check or PayPal payment to the freelancer to reimburse the freelancer for buying the widget. You would ONLY be allowed to use the Pay Bonus or Reimburse Expenses tool built into Upwork. Even though that would mean that 20% of your payment would be kept by Upwork as a fee.

 

I only need them to accept payments for me (originally--I'll change my job description now to just order fulfiller), so how is your example connected to my business?

 

Also, for more info, I am located in the Philippines. The reason I would've liked a "proxy" in some sense for payments (instead of me just accepting it myself) is so that I don't have to expose my personal payment info to a customer, for security reasons (since I am legal-wise an Individual or Sole Proprietor), while I'm working on the legal stuff of creating a legal entity for my business.

 

A

b3a85fff
Community Member

Just chatted with Customer Support. I do understand that the two women are just looking out for the community, the other guy as well. Obviously I'll reiterate this was a result of an error of mine, but I do want to let the individuals know (I did) that maybe they could've also asked to clarify

I have no idea what your business plans are.

 

It MAY VERY WELL BE THE CASE that you can hire people through Upwork to help you with most of your needs but not all of your needs.

 

Or you may be able to hire people who can ultimately help you with all of your needs.

 

You can CERTAINLY hire people who live in the Philippines. There are many thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - of customer service representatives who work out of the Philippines, through Upwork and through other platforms, as well as well as through dedicated customer service companies.

 

There are also people on Upwork who have expertise in banking, taxes, PayPal, MoneyGram, Western Union, and other related subjects. You can probably find people here who can be hired as consultants to help you figure out every aspect of your business.

 

MANY freelancers who work through Upwork help their clients move money. That includes myself. I have set up systems through which clients are able to receive and send money with business customers via PayPal, Stripe, and other financial gateways.

 

So I would say that you don't need to give up just yet. But there are specific key words and phrases and concepts which are problematic in job postings, due to Upwork's rules. Which you hopefullly are more familiar with after having asked questions here in the Forum.

re: I have no idea what your business plans are.

 

> Sell somewhat expensive sneakers.

 

re:

It MAY VERY WELL BE THE CASE that you can hire people through Upwork to help you with most of your needs but not all of your needs.

 

Or you may be able to hire people who can ultimately help you with all of your needs.

 

You can CERTAINLY hire people who live in the Philippines. There are many thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - of customer service representatives who work out of the Philippines, through Upwork and through other platforms, as well as well as through dedicated customer service companies.

 

There are also people on Upwork who have expertise in banking, taxes, PayPal, MoneyGram, Western Union, and other related subjects. You can probably find people here who can be hired as consultants to help you figure out every aspect of your business.

 

MANY freelancers who work through Upwork help their clients move money. That includes myself. I have set up systems through which clients are able to receive and send money with business customers via PayPal, Stripe, and other financial gateways.

 

So I would say that you don't need to give up just yet. But there are specific key words and phrases and concepts which are problematic in job postings, due to Upwork's rules. Which you hopefullly are more familiar with after having asked questions here in the Forum.

 

> I don't know if you're replying to a previous reply I made to you. It would be good if you helped me figure that out.

 

In any case, this is quite encouraging. I'll have a good report made about your reply after this. Your helpfulness shines in contrast against the other two ladies' responses (which again, totally was caused by not only my wording, but the job itself--I actually got told by Support that it was ToS violation). 

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

 

petra_r
Community Member


Enrico C wrote:

re: I have no idea what your business plans are.

 

> Sell somewhat expensive sneakers.


Honestly, nobody in their right mind would pay for expensive sneakers via Western Union. They'd have to be quite literally insane and have lived under a rock all of their lives.


Western Union / Moneygram are fine to send and receive money among friends and family. Not for paying for goods. Read this

 

If you set up your Internet-based business correctly, you don't have to be online or have Internet access to process payments. That is what payment gateways (legitimate ones such as credit cards or PayPal and so on) are there for.


Funneling WU etc payments through some innocent freelancer is not the way to go about it.

 

b3a85fff
Community Member

re: Honestly, nobody in their right mind would pay for expensive sneakers via Western Union. They'd have to be quite literally insane and have lived under a rock all of their lives.

 

> Hmmm...I have thought about that. Just wanna update you that I do plan on using bank transfer (in a way where I'd just have to go someplace else to hire someone to do that for me, maybe even a legitimate company that does that, as I type this)

 

re: Western Union / Moneygram are fine to send and receive money among friends and family. Not for paying for goods. Read this

 

> Hence my above response. 

> Just to add > I did talk to Customer Support on why I wanted to accept WU (Western Union) payments. Believe it or not, people actually pay bills here using brick-and-mortar remittance centers (Cebuana, M Lhuiller, Palawan Express I think).

> So SOME people wouldn't mind that. Would they bring their entire life savings? No.

> Have I mentioned that my sneakers are not "$10,000"? I probably should've added that. For now, they're about $300 shipping excluded.

 

re: If you set up your Internet-based business correctly, you don't have to be online or have Internet access to process payments. That is what payment gateways (legitimate ones such as credit cards or PayPal and so on) are there for.

 

> I didn't update you on this, my fault. I mean "no electricity" at all business, in a sense. I could still accept payments when I have mobile data on, but for (I'm a prepper) for those days where there's 24 hours or more and no electricity whatsoever--I just have my phone, SMS--THEN that's what I was meaning by WU (and now currently bank transfer--which if I hadn't specified yet--I'm finding a non-Upwork solution, that doesn't break ToS of any company).

 

re: Funneling WU etc payments through some innocent freelancer is not the way to go about it.

 

> First of all, 1) I was disclosing it UPFRONT. It's my fault you worded that statement, but I am NOT taking advantage of an "innocent" freelancer as if I'm doing something evil and you're up there like a Jesus figure. Anywho, I should've specified to you this part, so I'm to blame for your statement. Doesn't make it less offensive, but at least I know I caused it, and I could be more specific with you next time.

b3a85fff
Community Member

Enrico C wrote:

re: I have no idea what your business plans are.

 

> Sell somewhat expensive sneakers.

re: Honestly, nobody in their right mind would pay for expensive sneakers via Western Union. They'd have to be quite literally insane and have lived under a rock all of their lives.

 

> Sigh, I should've specified how "expensive" these sneakers are.

> They're $300 (for now, and they're $300 because I want my margins for each sale to be predicable so I can have a marketing plan with an end goal of traffic reached). And I only wanted to accept WU (Western Union) (I told this to Customer Support), because I decided ethics-wise to just be bare-bones and not ask my parents for bank account-opening money. Hope that enlightens you.

 

 

re: Honestly, nobody in their right mind would pay for expensive sneakers

> I will go back to this threa and I will SHOW YOU when that happens (when--not "if"). Mark that as deliverable from me. 

> Also, they're not $10,000. But I could probably still do it somehow, whether it's WU or not (bank transfer). I'm not about to "give up" because some random lady with a CoMmUnItY gUrU sign says "you can't do that" (that being said, most of your reactions were my fault, you should know that, and it's right for everyone who sees this to blame me and not you).

aocumen
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Enrico, 

I checked your account and can see that the team has already explained in detail how the job post is in violation of the Upwork Terms of Service. I would like to reiterate that all payments should be coursed through Upwork regardless if the payment is for purchasing items for the project, bonus payment, etc.

 

If you have further questions regarding violating the what actions may violate the Terms of Service, I would definitely recommend that you update the same ticket thread, so that the team can assist you further. 


~ Avery
Upwork
b3a85fff
Community Member

Hold on just one second--I SAID I'm skipping posting the job, and would find other means. Are you suggesting I'm still planning on "paying freelancers via Western Union (which I SAID I wouldn't do anymore), or having them as my proxy (which I SAID I will do on another platform where it isn't a ToS violation).

 

I'm gonna need to know your response, as I received ID verification from Upwork. Quite suspicious on Upwork's end if you ask me. I SAID I wasn't doing it anymore. Internet might wanna hear about this if this doesn't get clarified on both our ends.

All,

 

A few posts and replies to them have been removed from this thread as they were in violation of Community Guidelines.

 

Enrico, I'd like to reiterate Avery's suggestion and refer you to this ticket. I see that you've been communicating with an agent there about the job posting that was removed and it appears that the the situation has been clarified. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to post them on that ticket as well.

As for the ID verification request here, please note that Upwork team routinely asks freelancers and clients to verify their identities to keep the platform safe. You will find instructions on how to complete the process in that support ticket.

 

Thank you!

~ Valeria
Upwork

Yes, I see. If it seemed to Avery that I snapped at her I would say that was very embarassing from my end. I start to see what you mean, but I genuinely have no plan of using freelancers as "proxies" to accept bank transfers.

 

If you don't mind, I would like you to refrain (I'm trying hard not to use "stop" as it might come off negative to you) from having to reiterate that I would be breaking ToS. I will not be using freelancers as proxies here on Upwork. I hope that's clear. If I do, I would get reported by the freelancer and your reiterations would be effective. It's just that I don't know if I'm stressing enough that I won't be using freelancers as proxies here on Upwork to accept bank transfers in the previous replies. 

 

I hope that clears the air between all of us and I'll reply to Avery with an apology if I despite my efforts I still seemed like I snapped at her.

b3a85fff
Community Member

Avery, would you like an email thread of me and an Upwork Customer Service representative showing how DETAILED I gave him a statement of me choosing to NOT hire freelancers as a proxy?

 

re: 

 I would like to reiterate that all payments should be coursed through Upwork regardless if the payment is for purchasing items for the project, bonus payment, etc.

 

> Okay--please check EVERY response I have to EVERY comment here. I believe I indicated there that I will NOT pay freelancers off-platform

> To greatly reiterate yet again--I had a email thread with CS rep (Customer Service representative) saying how I will NOT pay freelancers off-Upwork.

 

Looking forward to your response.

b3a85fff
Community Member

I really tried to use effort in replying to you, but if I came across like I was snapping, I apologize. I don't want to blame others but it would help if you knew I just came from basically two "Community Gurus" that weren't so welcoming, let's say that. (Still, they could've responded differently and positively if I worded and updated everyone here with my Customer Support representative email thread that contained every update I had on my (former) planned job posting, they might not have responded that way to me.

 

Hope this doesn't result in unnecessary negative emotion from you that you direct towards me (here's me actively practicing what I learned from the 2 female Community Gurus I was referring to)

aocumen
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Enrico, 


No offense taken! I would like to note that as moderators, it is important for us to reiterate some information so that it's clear to other users who may be reading this thread. The Upwork Community is a public forum, and it is our responsibility to ensure that questions posted in the Community are answered with enough information so as not to confuse any silent reader. 


I would also like to apologise as it seemed that my response may have seemed I was alleging that you will violate the Upwork ToS. It was a lapse on my end, and I have updated my response to reflect that "...if you have further questions on what actions may violate the Upwork ToS, you may update the same ticket thread."

 

Let me know if you need further help with anything!


~ Avery
Upwork
b3a85fff
Community Member

Well just to update everyone (there really should be some sort of notification for everyone if they commented on a thread of some sort--thinking out loud but that would solve me having to repeat any updates), I'm being asked to verify my identity via ID--I'm just having problems since I live with my parents (22, citizen of the Philippines), so I have no utility bill, and no credit card yet so no CC (credit card) statement.

Hi Enrico,

 

I can see that you have followed up on your ticket with additional questions. One of our team members will assist you further directly on your ticket as soon as possible. Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork
petra_r
Community Member


Enrico C wrote:

 I have no utility bill, and no credit card yet so no CC (credit card) statement.


If you don't have a credit card you could not even pay your freelancer on Upwork anyway, so your job post was not going to lead to anything anyway, because you could not have verified your credit card (because you don't have one.)

 

 

Also to add, I am abandoning posting the job itself. I will just find a workaround for my problem.

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