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Exp U Community Member

Job warning signs

When reading a job description, what causes you to go "Ut-oh!"? What red flags do you see in applications that at least puts you on your guard, if not actually skip to the next one? Here's some of mine (and others):

 

First and foremost The work is yours until you are paid in full. You own the copyright until you have been paid the agreed sum. If you choose to work for 15 cents per hour then that's your problem. If it takes longer than you thought..again, down to you. BUT. If you have done your bit according to the contract that you agreed, then the work is yours until it's paid for.

 

Asking for payment or to use your own accounts (Thanks Dave!) Money comes from the client to you; anything else and you're doing it wrong. Do not ever (unless you know the client really well, and give it second thoughts even then) pay for something for the client unless you have received the money from them first. Deposit for something; webhosting accounts; domain name; subscription for site X that is "essential for the job" etc etc. No money. Ever. Similarly, do not use your own eBay, Craigslist etc. accounts to list things for sale...chances are high that it will end badly and wreck any good karma you have built up there. And it'll be you in the frame if it turns out that it was illegal.

 

"Bait and Switch" (Thanks Selcalmel!) Clients advertise one job and then offer a different job at interview. Now there can be valid reasons for this; but a big difference between the job description and the work you're being offered should be viewed with extreme suspicion. Mostly on oDesk it's either jobs that you wouldn't have applied for if the job was described honestly or changing the rules to try and get the price down.

 

Too many people being interviewed This can be a sign that the buyer is dividing the job up and giving the various parts as a 'test' to applicants...with the intention of getting the job for free. It could just be that the buyer is looking for a very specific set of skills, or other innocent motive, but maybe not.

NOTE: (Thanks Brandon!) This also applies to the client's history...check the total number of jobs posted versus people hired. If there are a load of jobs posted but few contracts awarded, then proceed with caution.

 

Only low bidders being interviewed If you're not one of the low bidders on that job then it's probably not worth applying.

 

Long list of demands, silly budget We've all seen them; the jobs for an all-singing, all-dancing website for $100, followed by either a HUGE feature list and/or a long list of qualities required by the contractor. Luckily for you, the buyer is advertising the fact that they are a wanker (behaviour which is unlikely to change if you were unfortunate enough to land the contract). This buyer knows the market well enough to know exactly what they want; and must therefore know that the budget is exploitative...move on. And as a corollary to the above (Thanks Louis!):

 

People who bellow orders, often in capitals "SUCH SUCH WILL NOT BE READ I IF [insert term].... OTHERWISE I WILL DELETE YOUR APPLICATION IMMEDIATELY". Or "MUST ATTACH SUCH AND SUCH OTHERWISE YOU ARE WASTING MY TIME". Some people -presumably after watching Alan Sugar or that twat Trump- think that this is how bosses should behave. I see it mostly as a sign of either someone being new to being in a position to call the shots and is a bit insecure about it, or someone who is a natural git. In either case your job will be more difficult because of it. Also, these types of application are frequently paired with a ridiculous budget. Any buyers who are reading this should note that this isn't the way to go about things...also all capitals make it harder to read and you're increasing the chances of applicants missing an important detail. Annoying people before they've even applied for your job cannot possibly help. Am I the only one, by the way, who feels the impulse to reply in kind?: "Listen up bitch. I reckon I can do it in 10 hours which'll cost you $450 and if that isn't good enough then you can just **Edited for Community Guidelines** would be a fairly short application, probably.

 

Mention of half-finished job/previous contractor/s There are two factors here...sorting out what someone else has done often takes longer than just doing whatever it is from scratch. You will very probably be inheriting a hairy-arsed nightmare. The other factor -and a question you should be asking yourself (and the buyer, come to that)- is exactly why the previous contractor didn't finish. It does happen that buyers get a run of bad luck with contractors (often after playing in the lower budget ranges), so it isn't necessarily the buyer's fault. On the other hand, it could be. Rescuing a client from a wall-to-wall catastrophe at the 11th hour is one of the best smug feelings you can get as a freelancer; but these jobs are high-risk...you need to ascertain for yourself that the buyer is genuine before getting in too deep. A note to any buyers reading this: If you've already been through two or more contractors and you still don't have a result, you need to seriously consider throwing a match in and starting with fresh code. I've had jobs where it took significantly longer to find out what the hell the previous guys had done than it would have taken to just bin everything and do the job. And with other people's code, you can never be 100% sure that you haven't missed something important/broken/nasty.

 

One-line descriptions Buyers quite often don't know the information that a contractor needs in order to produce a final product the client will be happy with; that's not a problem and it's the contractor's job to ask the right questions. But when you see a job like "I need a website. Plz replie", just move on. If they can't be bothered, then neither can I.

 

Payment method not verified Sign either of a first-time user or a scammer. If the unverified user is overly familiar with the way oDesk works...warning! If it's a first time user, you may well have to do some unofficial oDesk support and talk them through it. And you might still get scammed at the end.

 

Anything where you have to create a user account on another site (that isn't the site you're working on) before you start. No. Just no.

 

Business plan with failure built in As a webdesigner, I hear 10 plans for world domination before breakfast. Some job descriptions have fail built into the very fabric of the scheme. The worst ones are the ones where you have to mess around with NDAs and soothe the buyer that you're not going to be over the horizon with his masterplan (which often as not turns out to be another bloody facebook or youtube clone). *sigh*

 

Jobs where 'clients' are mentioned I don't really like sub-sub contracting. Firstly there's there's the thought of the buyer sitting on his arse collecting cash for my work; which rankles a bit. Secondly -and more important- is the 'Chinese Whisper Effect'; where the original client's specs is filtered through the middleman's idea of what the end-client wants. These specs may well not be accurate. You *will* be doing extra work because of this. The same applies to large companies where an underling has been given the task and is now offloading it onto you; but in this case the specs are more often written down. The worse case in this latter scenario can be where it's a committee and everyone present has to get a design change in there -no matter how pointless- just to get their name in the minutes of the meeting.

 

"It will only take 5 minutes" No it won't. No job in the history of contracting has ever taken only 5 minutes. It takes longer than that to liase with the potential client, for a start.

 

Jobs that aren't worth it ((Your hourly rate) * (Number of hours you think it will take)) + (Say 10% safety margin for extra missions/unexplained bits) = (Your price for the job). If there's not enough money or not enough time, then it's usually best to move on.

 

Anything that mentions CAPTCHA or removing watermarks It's naughty. Don't.

 

Web scraping Nah. Probably illegal (copyright) and definitely immoral. You're stealing someone else's work. Worse...you're automating stealing someone else's work.

 

Jobs where it looks like a reasonable budget for the job until you read the description and it turns out that the budget is a monthly wage for full-time work of the same type This is annoying and wastes time.

 

Non-profit organisation (Thanks Mahesh!) A non-profit organisation is not the same thing as a charity. Some are, of course, but some are tax dodges, some are for groups of people, with the aim of the organisation being something you don't necessarily approve of..."Mothers in support of the ruthless oppression of Brits in Spain"; "White supremacy"; "Black supremacy"; whatever. Or -as Mahesh points out- it could just be weasel-wording for the fact that they haven't made any money.

 

Buyers asking for free work samples/tests (Thanks Anna!) It is the buyer's right to ask, just as it is your right to refuse. It's also discouraged by oDesk. All the veteran contractors (including me) will advise against free samples and in any case that's what your portfolio is for...to show previous examples of work and the standard that you're capable of. For contractors it just is not worth it...if there's 30 applicants to the job, you're spending time doing work for a 1 in 30 chance of getting a job. You can spend your entire life doing this and not make a penny. Now that I've said all that, a free sample is what landed me my first job on oDesk...someone wanted a graphic vector conversion and -having some free time- I just did it and sent an (unusable) sample graphic in. The buyer didn't demand a sample (I would not have applied if that were the case), but I proved I could do the job by doing it. Traditionally in design work, it used to be the case that the designer offered several alternate designs; but those were for *much* larger-budget jobs. It isn't worth even considering for the sort of jobs that are at oDesk. If you do choose to give free samples, always watermark them (Thanks Ernesto!). In the case of writing samples, send them as a graphic or locked PDF so that the text can't be used without paying you.

 

Free work samples - Part II If the buyer is asking for free samples and if it's the sort of job that can be broken up into smaller tasks then pay extra attention; and also look closely at the number of people being interviewed.

 

"Great opportunity for newbies" (Thanks Judith!) This means that a buyer is offering a risably small budget for work in exchange for giving you feedback. This is either feedback blackmail or investing time in order to get in the game, depending upon your point of view. You are definitely being taken advantage of; but really it's your decision...as long as you go into it with your eyes open and as long as it's all agreed at the start. Buyers trying to use feedback to change the terms after the job has started, however, should be reported.

 

Vague specifications (Thanks Louis!) It's harder to work with vague specifications, mostly, but you see quite a lot of jobs with insufficient detail. If you're extremely lucky, it's a buyer who wants this Thing to perform this Function; is busy; has correctly assessed your level of competence; and trusts you to get 'er done. This is rare. It is, however, also difficult to write job descriptions with exactly the right amount of detail. Insufficient detail could be due to laziness; unfamiliarity with the oDesk system; lack of knowledge (which is after all why the buyer is getting a professional in)...lots of reasons. The best way of approaching this -I believe- is to use the application letter and interview to clear up any ambiguities and to focus in on the specs so that you and the client both agree on what the job actually is and where the boundaries are. If you start the job and only have a vague idea of what the client wants, you are going to have problems. Possibly big problems if the job description also states...

 

Unlimited redo A job description containing these words should be approached with caution. Particularly with website work, as you're essentially agreeing to maintain it forever as part of the deal. Add a bit of mission creep to a contract like this and you're in a world of hurt. I always specify 'reasonable amount of re-do' in the cover letter. It's a contract and you should never agree to something that can suck up an infinite amount of your time for free. I understand that buyers want their work the way they want it and the 'unlimited' is mostly just a way of ensuring that their needs will be met. You, the contractor, also needs to ensure that you're covered, so best to renegotiate this phrase.

 

"Send us ID" This is not needed to work at oDesk. Don't do it or you will be very sorry. Verify who you are through oDesk, if you must, but ***NEVER*** send ID; bank account details, PayPal, eBay or any other information that can be used by ID-theft types.

 

Write to me outside of odesk This isn't necessarily a problem...everyone has their preferred methods of communication. At the first hint of paying outside of oDesk you should run away quickly: It's against oDesk rules; will get your account terminated if you're caught; and you will probably get stiffed by the buyer anyway.

 

Phishing (Thanks Santos!) The way this works is that someone sends you a link (usually an obscured one like "http://bit.ly/whatever"). This takes you to a page that *looks like* a login page to a common internet service (Gmail, Paypal, Amazon, whatever), but isn't. What the page is, is a copy of that login screen and the idea is that you type your password in and it gets captured by naughty people. It's then standard practice to use that email/username/password on lots of other common services to see if they work. If you 1) fall for it and 2) use the same password everywhere, you're stuffed. Don't trust an obscured link; and ALWAYS check the URL on a login screen, just to make sure you're in the place you think you are. Personally, I go a little further than that and keep a link with my (encrypted) password file and I only use my local link to visit web services.

 

Good luck out there!

981 REPLIES 981
Donna's avatar
Donna A Community Member

Wow. I'm glad I read this. I'm a newbie in odesk. It's good to know this before I get started.

Evelynn's avatar
Evelynn J Community Member

Thank you for taking the time to write this post!

 

I came on here looking for answers to clients wanting commission-based freelancers. What are your thoughts on that?

 

Also, (question for you and everyone) how can commission-based jobs be tracked on Upwork? I know there's a fixed-price option, but don't you have to set milestones? How do you predict commission?!

Evelynn Jones
Business Development and Customer Support
About.me/evelynnmimijae
Jennifer's avatar
Jennifer M Community Member

I believe commission only jobs aren't allowed, but they could pay you a flat rate and then a bonus based on your sales. Just make sure you have a way to track your sales.

Joe's avatar
Joe H Community Member

UpWork is a mine field. I have tried it for 2 months and had all BAD experiences. They take a perent of every dollar that passes to the freelancers. Maybe they could spend some of that money to filter the employers and positions.

Teresa's avatar
Teresa D Community Member

Joe H: UpWork is a mine field. I have tried it for 2 months and had all BAD experiences. They take a perent of every dollar that passes to the freelancers. Maybe they could spend some of that money to filter the employers and positions.

 

I'm new and learning...and it's not a motivating, productive learn...

Leeanne's avatar
Leeanne A Community Member

This is such a great suggestion - filter the candidates more carefully and ask some personal questions as you would in an actual job interview

Cora's avatar
Cora R Community Member

I am new here. Havent started up any work yet. I notice some big named Companies that do these long and drawn out interviews on Google Hangouts. I notice they need to hire al these people but have no history with previous projects. This is very confusing deciphering what is real vs what is a sham. Can someone explain the most used method for a Company looking to use you as a free lancer?

Evelynn's avatar
Evelynn J Community Member

Hi Cora,

 

The main things I look for when looking to work with clients:

 

-- How many people have they actually hired on Upwork and what the reviews are. I also take notice if the clients don't give feedback to freelancers. SInce feedback is very important, I typically shy away from clients who do not give feedback. 

 

-- How their posts are written and how concise they are. Numerous typos, incorrect grammar throughout the post, etc. Is the client too vague? If they are but you are still interested in the job, submit a proposal and ask for clarification on the details. Make note of any avoidance of an interview or answering specific questions. 

 

-- I try to avoid jobs saying they need more than 2 or 3 freelancers for one project, especially if it seems simple enough for one to do. They may be looking for free work. 

 

Think of it this way -- if you were hiring on here, you would be open to the idea but you would also have reservations. With that, you would want to make sure that your posts are concise and give a decent amount of details about the job that needs to be done in order to have the best experience possible using Upwork. 

 

Another thing that helps is knowing yourself and your career/financial goals. Knowing these things will keep you from being desperate to take anything, and your mind is clear to make the best decisions when applying on Upwork. 

Evelynn Jones
Business Development and Customer Support
About.me/evelynnmimijae
Christine's avatar
Christine C Community Member

Yep! Sad but true.

Adina's avatar
Adina G Community Member

I think I am now in the situation of: GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR NEWCOMMERS..

 

Can some of you give me an opinion on this situation? The client told me he is interested in my proposal so she messaged me to contact her via personal email for further instructions. She will hire me through upwork for payment but she prefers to explain the instructions through email. More convenient for her since upwork messaging system is clunky. Then we chated about how the number of drawings,style, the timeframe for execution and the we agreed on a price. Then she set up a contract like this:

 

Client: 
Freelancer:  
Job Posting: Children Book Illustrator (ideal task for newcomer on upwork)
Contract Title: Children Book Illustrator (ideal task for newcomer on upwork)
Estimated Budget: $

Milestone 1: "Children Book Illustrator (ideal task for newcomer on upwork)" - $ (funded) - Due May 16, 2016

 

Is it just my  feeling or a proper contract  should include more details than these? like the number of illustrations, grant of rights, the credit, copyright, royalties, cancelation, competitive works, etc, like a proper contract they is usually made between an illustrator and a publisher/author? 

 

I googled and found a proper example here illustrationcastle.com/blogimages/Contract_Template

 

How do you other illustrator fellows proceed? Any suggestions about how it's safe to proceed in order to protect the artwork. Do you use upwork messages or it's ok to use personal email also? Thank you !

Nichola's avatar
Nichola L Community Member

From the way the RFP is written, the client wants to pay the lowest rates for a new freelancer or a freelancer new to the site. It is up to you to decide if you want to continue on these terms with the client.

 

But you certainly need to discuss with the client exactly what is expected for the price agreed (number of illustrations etc.) There are ways you can negotiate intellectual property rights, or credit for your work. However, when you sign up, Upwork's ruling on this is quite clear - you renounce all rights.

 

However, it does seem from your post, that your client has done everything needed to set up a contract correctly. So I am not quite sure what your problem is.

 

It also helps to be familiar with Upwork's user agreement on this subject.

  8.6 Intellectual Property Rights https://www.upwork.com/legal/

[. . .]

 

Ownership of Work Product and Intellectual Property

Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product, including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product, will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof. If Freelancer has any Intellectual Property Rights to the Work Product that are not owned by Client upon Freelancer’s receipt of payment from Client, Freelancer hereby automatically irrevocably assigns to Client all right, title and interest worldwide in and to such Intellectual Property Rights. Except as set forth above, Freelancer retains no rights to use, and will not challenge the validity of Client’s ownership in, such Intellectual Property Rights. Freelancer hereby waives any moral rights, rights of paternity, integrity, disclosure and withdrawal or inalienable rights under applicable law in and to the Work Product.

License to or Waiver of Other Rights

If Freelancer has any right to the Work Product, including without limitation any Intellectual Property Right, that cannot be assigned to Client by Freelancer, Freelancer hereby automatically, upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, unconditionally and irrevocably grants to Client during the term of such rights, an exclusive, even as to Freelancer, irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid and royalty-free license to such rights, with rights to sublicense through multiple levels of sublicensees, to reproduce, make derivative works of, distribute, publicly perform and publicly display in any form or medium, whether now known or later developed, make, use, sell, import, offer for sale and exercise any and all such rights. If Freelancer has any rights to such Work Product that cannot be assigned or licensed, Freelancer hereby automatically, upon Freelancer’s receipt of payment from Client, unconditionally and irrevocably waives the enforcement of such rights, and all claims and causes of action of any kind against Client or related to Client’s customers, with respect to such rights, and will, at Client’s request and expense, consent to and join in any action to enforce such rights.

L's avatar
L L Community Member

Stick to Upwork for as many of the correspondences as you can; don't start until the contract addresses all the areas you need it to and make sure it is signed by both parties before beginning. 

 

 

charles's avatar
charles k Community Member

I read all of the posts regarding job warning signs and I found it interesting. I am a newbie, and posted that I wanted someone to finish my website started by Godaddy. I made the mistake of hiring thmem and assuming they knew what they were doing, and worth what they charged me. I had Go Daddy redesign my original website, **Edited for Community Guidelines**, and create a new website that is an e-commerce site. I spent $1500 on each site, and was paying $500 a month for SEO services on my e-commerce site, **Edited for Community Guidelines**. I travel a lot in my business, and I take responsibility for some of the problems we had getting this up and running. But, I don't feel like Go Daddy heard me when I kept saying I had created some gag gifts based on the presidential election in November and time was critical to me. When I finally Felt like I needed to do something to get the ball rolling I requested help on your site. I agreed that one of the persons who bid on my site would  do the job. Several days later, I received notice that that person decided they didn't want to do the job. So, from a buyers standpoint, I'm not overly impressed with your site.

Ona J's avatar
Ona J B Community Member

Charles, 

 

That sounds like a rough experience. What you, and many others may not realize, is that the level of talent found in both clients and freelancers on Upwork is variable. Upwork is a platform where people with abilities can get together with people who need work done; but that doesn't mean that the results are always predictable. It sounds as if you needed some fairly specific and technical work -- web design isn't for everyone. Also, I know from experience that Go Daddy is not the easiest platform on which to create a website. 

 

While it might be a little late, and seem redundant, I recommend that you look at Google Sites. They are free to use, and are extremely user friendly. Meanwhile, create a breadboard mockup of what you want your website to look like and do. Sometimes the big problem is lack of clarity in communication. Armed with those things, look for freelancers who are specifically interested in web design and possibly even have some programming skills.

Milos's avatar
Milos G Community Member

Darren , thanks for this list! I totally agree with you.
Marvel's avatar
Marvel J Community Member

Thanks for doing this Darren. A lot of contractors don't know this. Even me who is the mistress of scam spotting, get scammed once in a while and I think I am about to get some heat again from a dodgy fixed price employer! I better make "hay" while the sun shines
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

Another warning sigh would be when description says job is for a 'non-profit organization'. Usually means still haven't made any money, meanwhile lookin for a free meal.
Natasha's avatar
Natasha R Community Member

Thanks 🙂
Marissa's avatar
Marissa S Community Member

Darren, you should guest blog at Odesk -- love what you wrote here 😉
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

Doubt if they'd have me. I'm too sweary for oDesk's frontline. Heh. I'd be the only one there with a full-time personal moderator.
Lisa's avatar
Lisa R Community Member

The list is a great one, as everyone agrees. It's the same stuff I'm always looking out for as well. On sites like oDesk, it pays to keep your wits about you. Seems you gotta sort through a million scams to find a couple of worthy jobs to apply to (if you can't tell, I'm super picky about where I apply or what invites I accept, LOL). Newbies on any freelance site should read this list...it could save them a ton of grief! oDesk should include much of it in their FAQs or newbie information 🙂
Eva's avatar
Eva A Community Member

You made my day. I just had to log in my laughter... very funny "I'm too sweary for oDesk's frontline. Heh. I'd be the only one there with a full-time personal moderator."
Louis's avatar
Louis D Community Member

Very comprehensive: I like it. All of these signs push my buttons (don't get me started about sub-contracting: take 95% and pay the contractor the rest in some cases). Another sign for me personally is people who bark orders or are snappy and rude in their job descriptions, things like: "SUCH SUCH WILL NOT BE READ I IF [insert term].... OTHERWISE I WILL DELETE YOUR APPLICATION IMMEDIATELY". Or "MUST ATTACH SUCH AND SUCH OTHERWISE YOU ARE WASTING MY TIME". Just generally very coarse militarized writing.. often in capitals. Turns me right-off. Nothing wrong with putting a few specifications or clauses in there for sure but barking things like some maniac suggests a buyer who has an incompatible attitude to mine. Generally the job description will give insights to who you are dealing with and nothing does it for me more than a nicely written, tight and to the point job description with a dash of respect thrown in. But that's just me anyway - some folk might like that kind of thing.
Alex's avatar
Alex W Community Member

Agree. Avoid such.
Mark's avatar
Mark T Community Member

I think the biggest rule is not to be too eager to get your first job.