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Exp U Community Member

Job warning signs

When reading a job description, what causes you to go "Ut-oh!"? What red flags do you see in applications that at least puts you on your guard, if not actually skip to the next one? Here's some of mine (and others):

 

First and foremost The work is yours until you are paid in full. You own the copyright until you have been paid the agreed sum. If you choose to work for 15 cents per hour then that's your problem. If it takes longer than you thought..again, down to you. BUT. If you have done your bit according to the contract that you agreed, then the work is yours until it's paid for.

 

Asking for payment or to use your own accounts (Thanks Dave!) Money comes from the client to you; anything else and you're doing it wrong. Do not ever (unless you know the client really well, and give it second thoughts even then) pay for something for the client unless you have received the money from them first. Deposit for something; webhosting accounts; domain name; subscription for site X that is "essential for the job" etc etc. No money. Ever. Similarly, do not use your own eBay, Craigslist etc. accounts to list things for sale...chances are high that it will end badly and wreck any good karma you have built up there. And it'll be you in the frame if it turns out that it was illegal.

 

"Bait and Switch" (Thanks Selcalmel!) Clients advertise one job and then offer a different job at interview. Now there can be valid reasons for this; but a big difference between the job description and the work you're being offered should be viewed with extreme suspicion. Mostly on oDesk it's either jobs that you wouldn't have applied for if the job was described honestly or changing the rules to try and get the price down.

 

Too many people being interviewed This can be a sign that the buyer is dividing the job up and giving the various parts as a 'test' to applicants...with the intention of getting the job for free. It could just be that the buyer is looking for a very specific set of skills, or other innocent motive, but maybe not.

NOTE: (Thanks Brandon!) This also applies to the client's history...check the total number of jobs posted versus people hired. If there are a load of jobs posted but few contracts awarded, then proceed with caution.

 

Only low bidders being interviewed If you're not one of the low bidders on that job then it's probably not worth applying.

 

Long list of demands, silly budget We've all seen them; the jobs for an all-singing, all-dancing website for $100, followed by either a HUGE feature list and/or a long list of qualities required by the contractor. Luckily for you, the buyer is advertising the fact that they are a wanker (behaviour which is unlikely to change if you were unfortunate enough to land the contract). This buyer knows the market well enough to know exactly what they want; and must therefore know that the budget is exploitative...move on. And as a corollary to the above (Thanks Louis!):

 

People who bellow orders, often in capitals "SUCH SUCH WILL NOT BE READ I IF [insert term].... OTHERWISE I WILL DELETE YOUR APPLICATION IMMEDIATELY". Or "MUST ATTACH SUCH AND SUCH OTHERWISE YOU ARE WASTING MY TIME". Some people -presumably after watching Alan Sugar or that twat Trump- think that this is how bosses should behave. I see it mostly as a sign of either someone being new to being in a position to call the shots and is a bit insecure about it, or someone who is a natural git. In either case your job will be more difficult because of it. Also, these types of application are frequently paired with a ridiculous budget. Any buyers who are reading this should note that this isn't the way to go about things...also all capitals make it harder to read and you're increasing the chances of applicants missing an important detail. Annoying people before they've even applied for your job cannot possibly help. Am I the only one, by the way, who feels the impulse to reply in kind?: "Listen up bitch. I reckon I can do it in 10 hours which'll cost you $450 and if that isn't good enough then you can just **Edited for Community Guidelines** would be a fairly short application, probably.

 

Mention of half-finished job/previous contractor/s There are two factors here...sorting out what someone else has done often takes longer than just doing whatever it is from scratch. You will very probably be inheriting a hairy-arsed nightmare. The other factor -and a question you should be asking yourself (and the buyer, come to that)- is exactly why the previous contractor didn't finish. It does happen that buyers get a run of bad luck with contractors (often after playing in the lower budget ranges), so it isn't necessarily the buyer's fault. On the other hand, it could be. Rescuing a client from a wall-to-wall catastrophe at the 11th hour is one of the best smug feelings you can get as a freelancer; but these jobs are high-risk...you need to ascertain for yourself that the buyer is genuine before getting in too deep. A note to any buyers reading this: If you've already been through two or more contractors and you still don't have a result, you need to seriously consider throwing a match in and starting with fresh code. I've had jobs where it took significantly longer to find out what the hell the previous guys had done than it would have taken to just bin everything and do the job. And with other people's code, you can never be 100% sure that you haven't missed something important/broken/nasty.

 

One-line descriptions Buyers quite often don't know the information that a contractor needs in order to produce a final product the client will be happy with; that's not a problem and it's the contractor's job to ask the right questions. But when you see a job like "I need a website. Plz replie", just move on. If they can't be bothered, then neither can I.

 

Payment method not verified Sign either of a first-time user or a scammer. If the unverified user is overly familiar with the way oDesk works...warning! If it's a first time user, you may well have to do some unofficial oDesk support and talk them through it. And you might still get scammed at the end.

 

Anything where you have to create a user account on another site (that isn't the site you're working on) before you start. No. Just no.

 

Business plan with failure built in As a webdesigner, I hear 10 plans for world domination before breakfast. Some job descriptions have fail built into the very fabric of the scheme. The worst ones are the ones where you have to mess around with NDAs and soothe the buyer that you're not going to be over the horizon with his masterplan (which often as not turns out to be another bloody facebook or youtube clone). *sigh*

 

Jobs where 'clients' are mentioned I don't really like sub-sub contracting. Firstly there's there's the thought of the buyer sitting on his arse collecting cash for my work; which rankles a bit. Secondly -and more important- is the 'Chinese Whisper Effect'; where the original client's specs is filtered through the middleman's idea of what the end-client wants. These specs may well not be accurate. You *will* be doing extra work because of this. The same applies to large companies where an underling has been given the task and is now offloading it onto you; but in this case the specs are more often written down. The worse case in this latter scenario can be where it's a committee and everyone present has to get a design change in there -no matter how pointless- just to get their name in the minutes of the meeting.

 

"It will only take 5 minutes" No it won't. No job in the history of contracting has ever taken only 5 minutes. It takes longer than that to liase with the potential client, for a start.

 

Jobs that aren't worth it ((Your hourly rate) * (Number of hours you think it will take)) + (Say 10% safety margin for extra missions/unexplained bits) = (Your price for the job). If there's not enough money or not enough time, then it's usually best to move on.

 

Anything that mentions CAPTCHA or removing watermarks It's naughty. Don't.

 

Web scraping Nah. Probably illegal (copyright) and definitely immoral. You're stealing someone else's work. Worse...you're automating stealing someone else's work.

 

Jobs where it looks like a reasonable budget for the job until you read the description and it turns out that the budget is a monthly wage for full-time work of the same type This is annoying and wastes time.

 

Non-profit organisation (Thanks Mahesh!) A non-profit organisation is not the same thing as a charity. Some are, of course, but some are tax dodges, some are for groups of people, with the aim of the organisation being something you don't necessarily approve of..."Mothers in support of the ruthless oppression of Brits in Spain"; "White supremacy"; "Black supremacy"; whatever. Or -as Mahesh points out- it could just be weasel-wording for the fact that they haven't made any money.

 

Buyers asking for free work samples/tests (Thanks Anna!) It is the buyer's right to ask, just as it is your right to refuse. It's also discouraged by oDesk. All the veteran contractors (including me) will advise against free samples and in any case that's what your portfolio is for...to show previous examples of work and the standard that you're capable of. For contractors it just is not worth it...if there's 30 applicants to the job, you're spending time doing work for a 1 in 30 chance of getting a job. You can spend your entire life doing this and not make a penny. Now that I've said all that, a free sample is what landed me my first job on oDesk...someone wanted a graphic vector conversion and -having some free time- I just did it and sent an (unusable) sample graphic in. The buyer didn't demand a sample (I would not have applied if that were the case), but I proved I could do the job by doing it. Traditionally in design work, it used to be the case that the designer offered several alternate designs; but those were for *much* larger-budget jobs. It isn't worth even considering for the sort of jobs that are at oDesk. If you do choose to give free samples, always watermark them (Thanks Ernesto!). In the case of writing samples, send them as a graphic or locked PDF so that the text can't be used without paying you.

 

Free work samples - Part II If the buyer is asking for free samples and if it's the sort of job that can be broken up into smaller tasks then pay extra attention; and also look closely at the number of people being interviewed.

 

"Great opportunity for newbies" (Thanks Judith!) This means that a buyer is offering a risably small budget for work in exchange for giving you feedback. This is either feedback blackmail or investing time in order to get in the game, depending upon your point of view. You are definitely being taken advantage of; but really it's your decision...as long as you go into it with your eyes open and as long as it's all agreed at the start. Buyers trying to use feedback to change the terms after the job has started, however, should be reported.

 

Vague specifications (Thanks Louis!) It's harder to work with vague specifications, mostly, but you see quite a lot of jobs with insufficient detail. If you're extremely lucky, it's a buyer who wants this Thing to perform this Function; is busy; has correctly assessed your level of competence; and trusts you to get 'er done. This is rare. It is, however, also difficult to write job descriptions with exactly the right amount of detail. Insufficient detail could be due to laziness; unfamiliarity with the oDesk system; lack of knowledge (which is after all why the buyer is getting a professional in)...lots of reasons. The best way of approaching this -I believe- is to use the application letter and interview to clear up any ambiguities and to focus in on the specs so that you and the client both agree on what the job actually is and where the boundaries are. If you start the job and only have a vague idea of what the client wants, you are going to have problems. Possibly big problems if the job description also states...

 

Unlimited redo A job description containing these words should be approached with caution. Particularly with website work, as you're essentially agreeing to maintain it forever as part of the deal. Add a bit of mission creep to a contract like this and you're in a world of hurt. I always specify 'reasonable amount of re-do' in the cover letter. It's a contract and you should never agree to something that can suck up an infinite amount of your time for free. I understand that buyers want their work the way they want it and the 'unlimited' is mostly just a way of ensuring that their needs will be met. You, the contractor, also needs to ensure that you're covered, so best to renegotiate this phrase.

 

"Send us ID" This is not needed to work at oDesk. Don't do it or you will be very sorry. Verify who you are through oDesk, if you must, but ***NEVER*** send ID; bank account details, PayPal, eBay or any other information that can be used by ID-theft types.

 

Write to me outside of odesk This isn't necessarily a problem...everyone has their preferred methods of communication. At the first hint of paying outside of oDesk you should run away quickly: It's against oDesk rules; will get your account terminated if you're caught; and you will probably get stiffed by the buyer anyway.

 

Phishing (Thanks Santos!) The way this works is that someone sends you a link (usually an obscured one like "http://bit.ly/whatever"). This takes you to a page that *looks like* a login page to a common internet service (Gmail, Paypal, Amazon, whatever), but isn't. What the page is, is a copy of that login screen and the idea is that you type your password in and it gets captured by naughty people. It's then standard practice to use that email/username/password on lots of other common services to see if they work. If you 1) fall for it and 2) use the same password everywhere, you're stuffed. Don't trust an obscured link; and ALWAYS check the URL on a login screen, just to make sure you're in the place you think you are. Personally, I go a little further than that and keep a link with my (encrypted) password file and I only use my local link to visit web services.

 

Good luck out there!

981 REPLIES 981
matthew's avatar
matthew i Community Member

You're a contractor - not a client. You're an employee, not an employer. Oh end - it's not smart to shoot your mouth off in a place potential employers can see. This might explain while many jumped from job to job back in their hometown. Really looks bad on your part and will turn off many potential clients. Stuff like this is common sense, or should be at least. 🙂
Natasa's avatar
Natasa R Community Member

[quote]You're a contractor - not a client. You're an employee, not an employer.[/quote] Geez... like talking to a five-year old...
Reynaldo's avatar
Reynaldo M Community Member

Hi Darren, Nice to see you back up and about. You're back as a regular or just passing thru? Hope not. I see your a bit mellow with this guy, trying to hold it eh? I think he is just bitter that others gets more or paid more by clients and he can't get the same. What's word best describe such??? Because of his Bible the Worldwide Payscale, his belief is that a Contractor/Employee/Supplier whether he is "So-so, just enough, average, good, excellent, great, Outstanding" skills and output should be paid Equally as set by his bible. 🙂
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

Back, sorta, maybe. When the guy started up, he seemed to have a grievance against devs-who-aren't-from-the-US in particular. I wondered if maybe he'd been recently stitched up...he certainly seemed annoyed about something. So if he kicked off because of an actual event I didn't want to add to his butthurt. And if he was trolling, he was doing so so poorly that it wasn't worth bothering with.
Kristin's avatar
Kristin H Community Member

Darren, I just wanted to thank you for the original post. I refer back to it regularly when I have doubts about whether or not I should accept a contract. I think it saved me from a huge headache the other day.
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

You're very welcome; and I'm glad it helped (if it did). It is all obvious stuff though. By the way, for those of you reading this thread for job warning signs; if you ever come across a potential client imploding like the guy above -maybe at the interview stage- press the "Hell no!" button and get out of there.
Kristin's avatar
Kristin H Community Member

this "Hell No" button that you speak of....I will keep an eye out for it in the future. 🙂
Robin's avatar
Robin C Community Member

[quote=Kristin Holle]I will keep an eye out for it in the future.[/quote] It is a bit tricky to locate. It is disguised as what is called an "optional comment," and it requires some key work, but the bonus to that is that it is customizable (for when the standard mentioned "button" just won't do). EDIT: Or maybe it is disguised as a required comment? I can't recall, but either one will do.
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

Maybe we should ask oDesk for one. Mind you, as it wouldn't break functionality in any way or wreck anyone's career, it probably won't be implemented.
Dianne's avatar
Dianne M Community Member

I like that button. I find myself using it quite often these past few months. Click! Click! Click!


❄❄❄ Just A Forum Contributor --- This isn't against forum guidelines ❄❄❄
Julie's avatar
Julie N Community Member

I am becoming more cautious,when individuals contact me about potential jobs. Recently, a potential client asked me to call them long distance. My reply was, "No!" I sometimes wonder if someone is checking to see how dumb I am. I have also experienced the CAPITAL LETTER RANTS. I will not work with anyone, does not show me some courtesy and respect. I learned a great deal from your advice. I too could have used this advice a long time ago.:) Thanks, Julie
Lisa's avatar
Lisa D Community Member

I think I just been had. A client messaged me to translate 3 docs within 12 hours. At first I hesitated since it was supposed to be a short test. Then, I wondered if O'Desk used other methods to track this job for me to get my payment. There is NO ID of the client. There is no way I can bill him either. I sent him a message through the job posting saying that he had to pay me for the completed documents and even sent him the documents. Where is the ID of the client? Can a client send so much work and call it a short test? Then again, I could be mistaken. How can I track this client?
Stephen's avatar
Stephen B Community Member

Hi Lisa, there's no way of knowing if you're a newbie as your profile, is set to private (do you want it that way?) I'm assuming you are a newbie, and judging by what you've written you've fallen into a standard trap of taking on work before being hired. The message system is for discussing work and delivering documents to be worked on, but for any work to be done there needs to be a contract in place. You discuss the job via messages, then the client may or may not invite you to interview (this stage isn't essential), the and only then the client makes you a JOB OFFER. You follow the link to view the offer, read the terms, and either accept or decline. You can't miss this stage - there's a big green bubble saying ACCEPT OFFER. When, and only when, the offer is accepted, a CONTRACT is opened. I'm guessing in your case this never happened. Note also that if it was a fixed price job, even if there was a contract in place, there's still no guarantee of you getting paid (someone else may pick up on this..) Hope that's helpful, even if not much consolation...
Lisa's avatar
Lisa D Community Member

I have no clue why I just did the work. On Elance, you can invoice the client. All is there. ID and invoicing. Live and learn. Like you said, even under contract, the work may not get paid. I applied at so many job postings. Then, I got the message to translate a doc within 12 hours. I had submitted to this client earlier and and I just didn't think any further but I have the original job posting where it says that he has 3 ongoing job postings. I still didn't see the ID of this client. This is what I don't understand.This client has been able to post 23 jobs. Hired 0. I just fell for this scam artist. Can I Flag Inappropriate - he has 3 other job postings? I just want to do what's right. Can anyone tell me what I should do? Drop it or Flag the client? Thanks
Robin's avatar
Robin C Community Member

and know better next time. 🙂
Monalisa's avatar
Monalisa P Community Member

Thanks a lot for these tips. I didn't even apply for a job and there is a interview waiting for me.... As I read my first impression is its a scam ... Doesn't it ever happen?
Kristin's avatar
Kristin H Community Member

The majority of my jobs come from invitations to interview. I rarely apply for jobs on the boards.
Lynne's avatar
Lynne P Community Member

I've noticed in the last few weeks that there appear to be more clients whose payment methods are not verified than there are who have taken that step. Are there that many new clients posting on oDesk? Are they Elance clients? I've come across a good number of jobs that I would normally apply for, except for the fact that the payment method is not verified. Should I take the chance and apply or move on? I'd be interested to see what my fellow freelancers are thinking and doing in this regard.
Junelle's avatar
Junelle A Community Member

i wouldn't worry too much about it, especially if the client has just joined the site. most newbie clients aren't yet sure that they'll find the right contractor for their needs so not all of them complete the process of verifying themselves. you can always apply to their job posts, just make sure to remind them that they need to get payment method verified first before you can start work. without it, you can't get paid.
"If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain." - Maya Angelou
Try harder, or care less.
Lynne's avatar
Lynne P Community Member

Thanks, Junelle. I have worked with a few clients who were just getting started here, helping them through the process of verifying and hiring. Everything worked out great, so I was lucky! I've just noticed lately that there are more and more "new" ones posting jobs, and I've become a little cynical about some clients' legitimacy. This could be a good thing, though. More clients, more jobs for us!!
Andrea's avatar
Andrea T Community Member

hi, I just got an offer: Your resume has been successfully received, reviewed and approved by the HR department and we believe you are qualified for an on-line interview via yahoo messenger with the hiring Manager ** , please contact her via yahoo messenger ** If you don't have a yahoo ID you are required to set up an account at (mail.yahoo.com) and download an instant messenger (www.messenger.yahoo.com) I'm leery because it's contact outside of oDesk. suggestions? thanks! *"Removed by admin"
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

There's nothing wrong with contact outside oDesk - clients communicate with whatever they're comfortable with. *Being paid* outside oDesk is very much against the rules, but contact is no problem That said; this particular job sounds like it might be sketchy. Same phrasing as this one: https://www.odesk.com/community/node/33041 ...which is a scam because they offer to send you a check to cover expanses; and there's a number of ways of scamming you once that happens.
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

I too avoid working for these unmentioned countries. Aside from the terrible rates, they seem to think you want to sign your life away to them and their ridiculous demands. What I find strange is that they often get good feedback, my assumption is they demand 5 star feedback in return for the freelancer being allowed to escape. If you're reading this, and you're a new freelancer who has been contacted by someone from these countries (think spicy food but not with peppers!) my advice is to refuse, if you accept their offer they'll have their hooks into you until they're done.
Stephen's avatar
Stephen B Community Member

You don't work for countries - you work for people...
Exp's avatar
Exp U Community Member

Yeah, I've been meaning to address that bit for some time. Amazed I haven't been called on it before now, to be honest. And I've also tried to edit it; but I think I'm probably bumping up against some sort of forum post limit; because it wouldn't let me. I wasn't even suggesting that you should write off whole countries...countries are big places, in the main, full of a whole spectrum of people. What I am saying is that work ethics and acceptable practices vary from place to place and that should be borne in mind when money is involved. As an example, I moved from a rural-ish area of the UK to a seaside town in Spain. It was pretty safe to do business there in the UK because everybody knew where everybody else involved lived. Where I am now the town derives its yearly income from maybe 3 months of the year and surviving that year is dependent solely upon how much cash you can extract from tourists during those 3 months. Scamming tourists is seen almost as a game here and is met almost with something like reserved approval; rather than the bristling moustache and no offer of tea that it would have been met with in my area of the UK. I suspect that this is more a tourist economy thing rather than a Spanish thing and would expect to find more-or-less the same thing in a seaside town in the UK (except maybe politer and with more tea involved...scones as well with a bit of luck). Took me a while to adjust to here, just as it took here a little while to adjust to me (the price I pay for a beer at the start of the night, for example, had damned well better be the same price I'm paying for a beer at the end of the night; or there's going to be a loud vocabulary lesson happening). Now the work ethic -and what is seen as acceptable behaviour- does seem to vary from place to place and there are certain areas around the globe -in my personal experience- where jobs seem to have a higher percentage of going wrong. It's an increased risk, so any proposal from those areas has to be more appealing to me in order to compensate. Why those jobs go wrong could be down to me...it's entirely possible that I'm just not getting some particular facet of philosophy of life for some reason and it's my own lack of understanding that is messing things up. In practical terms; it's just another factor in my personal risk assessment for a job. Everybody is a little bit racist as we all have monkey genes and strangers carry the threat of the unknown, plus they're competing for the same resources we are. As an old, fat, white bloke; everything I say or do is an -ism to somebody if they're determined to be offended. That means that I have to work harder to override those monkey thoughts. Also, as an expat I *am* "that bloke comin' over 'ere takin' our jobs *mumble, rhubarb, rhubarb, polishes pitchfork*" (or I would be if there were any jobs); so experiencing racism from the pointy end also gives you a little extra perspective. Another example: I don't get on so well with aggressively religious people and tend to blow past those jobs where it looks like it might be a problem. It is a personal risk factor; but everyone's mileage varies. No problem with religion and I will defend to the extent of moderately severe bruising your right to have one; but leave me out of it. It's an attitude (OK, yet another of my multitudinous personality flaws) that doesn't set well with a certain personality type, so I try to not get in that situation. Like licking plug sockets - there's a high chance of things going horribly wrong, so why do it? This is probably an -ism of some kind. The 'job warnings' guide is only the sketchiest of general guides and pretty well every single point has exceptions. It also depends very much upon individual circumstances and what you and the client/contractor are bringing to the table. The areas/personality types that cause me to flip the "Shields up" button won't be the same for everyone; and that's a good thing. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone avoids whole countries full of people because of what one bloke wrote on the internet; and I'm sorry if anyone took that as the message. The areas I view with caution are unique to me and not necessarily what you think they are. EDIT: I've deleted that bit.
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