Refund advice

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

Going to try to make this as simple as possible.
My client is opening a new business. Client was looking for someone to make a food recall and excel spreadsheet to record products, batches, customers contact info ect in case of food recall. I have experience in the food industry, running a business, and with Microsoft 365. Client and I agreed on making an excel spreadsheet detail orientated and food recall (roughly 12 pages). People normally charge $300-500 for written food recall plans. I charged her less than 1/3 of the price for excel and food recall plan to build cliental. We agree on a fixed price with milestones; however, client knew I was working on both at the same time and we agreed to have it ready the night afterwards. I accept the offer for the excel, send in the excel. I even included ways to track the invoices because I understand that’s important for a business owner. Client complains I gave them nothing they asked for even though I did exactly what client said and went above and beyond. I said ok how can I make this better for you? Client says “do what you feel is best”. So I added even more detail orientated information... client complains again. Says that “I’m obviously not experienced in this field”. Client wants to cancel the contract. I never got back to the client because I was trying to figure out how I got paid. At this point, the client has now received 2 excel spreadsheets unwatermarked because it was part of the contract. So client cancels contract without me answering and is now asking for a full refund and has all my work. We also never even got to the point of me sending the food recall which is a personalized 12 page recall I made for the client that we both agreed to. So now I am unpaid for that. What do I do? I believe I shouldn’t accept the refund because I have about 5-6 hours of work there and it’s quite a bit of work.

prestonhunter · ‎07-01-2019

Katlyn:

The way I see it, you have 3 options at this point in time:

A) Tell the client that at this point you would prefer that she asks for a full refund, so that you will retain clear ownership of all of the work. Ask the client to close the contract and request a full refund, and then click the button to accept the refund. Then post the files in your portfolio. (Or you can proactively close the contract, and release all money in escrow back to the client. That may be even better, because it demonstrates clearly that you are not taking any money for the work.)

B) Tell the client that you are willing to accept a compromise, such as her paying 50% of the original agreed-upon price. Tell her if she closes the contract and asks for 50% back, you will immediately agree to that. Tell her that if she can't do that, you will understand, but you will then need to ask for the full amount to be paid.

C) Use the "Submit Work / Request Payment" button. Ask for the full amount. Be polite and helpful. But if she tries to send you less than the full agreed-upon amount, file a dispute and ask for all of the money to be paid to you.

prestonhunter · ‎07-01-2019

Note that because you completed the original, agreed-upon task, the only ethical, moral choice for the client at this point is to release the full amount of escrow to you. But as a freelancer, you do not have control over the client's actions.

kat303 · ‎07-01-2019

Preston H wrote:
Katlyn:
The way I see it, you have 3 options at this point in time:

A) Tell the client that at this point you would prefer that she asks for a full refund, so that you will retain clear ownership of all of the work. Ask the client to close the contract and request a full refund, and then click the button to accept the refund. Then post the files in your portfolio. (Or you can proactively close the contract, and release all money in escrow back to the client. That may be even better, because it demonstrates clearly that you are not taking any money for the work.)

Preston, if the OP does that, it will be a job with NO money earned and that will affect her JSS either now (if she has a JSS) or in the future. The client can also give her a negative feedback. That would be 2 hits on her profile.

B) Tell the client that you are willing to accept a compromise, such as her paying 50% of the original agreed-upon price. Tell her if she closes the contract and asks for 50% back, you will immediately agree to that. Tell her that if she can't do that, you will understand, but you will then need to ask for the full amount to be paid.

C) Use the "Submit Work / Request Payment" button. Ask for the full amount. Be polite and helpful. But if she tries to send you less than the full agreed-upon amount, file a dispute and ask for all of the money to be paid to you.

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

Hello. Thank you for replying. I would not even be able to refund anything because the money was left in escrow. I submitted the work and they never pressed for the payment to go through. They just want the money out of escrow. And it’s only for the one milestone where we agreed to two milestones. I send the second one, client never accepted it

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

The client keeps stating I’m not qualified to do the job. I was authentic with her since the beginning about my qualifications. I even reinstated what I was capable of doing. I did not sign up to be a mind reader. I asked what client would like, told me to “do what is best”

kat303 · ‎07-01-2019

If the work was sloppy, full of errors, half done then I would advise you to refund the client. But if the work was done to the specifications of the contract/milestone(s), completed and you put in the time and effort and even went above and beyond then no way should you refund the client.

I am so fed up with the rise of clients using this tactic and getting their work done for free. And unless freelancers stand up for what is owed to them and for the time and effort they took, this will only continue to rise. I don't know if you are a newbie, but usually scam clients who use this tactic, use it on new freelancers.

My advice, is that you dispute that refund request. When you file a dispute an Upwork mediator will tell you to try and work it out with the client, hopefully coming to an agreement that satisfies both parties, It may even sound like the mediator is telling you to give that refund. They are Not. It is only a suggestion and is not binding. If an agreement can't be reached, the next and final step is arbitration.

When you go into arbitration the client must pay a $291 fee and you also must pay that same fee. Several things can happen

1. Both client and freelancer pay fee. Neither will get that fee back no matter in who's favor the arbitrator decides on.

2. You pay the fee, the client does not. You get that fee back and you get whatever is funded in escrow.

IMO, if it were me, knowing I did the work and the work was of high quality and adhered to the requirements of the contract, I would take it all the way up to arbitration. I think all the way up to arbitration is your best bet because as I noted in Preston's reply, if you refund, that counts as a job with no money earned and that will affect your JSS. You'll probably get negative feedback from the client. That's 2 hits on your profile if you accept that refund request.

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

Yes, I am new at this. I agree, it also makes me very angry. I gave 100% to this person. I was honest and consistent. I was authentic with all of my qualifications. I am completely qualified to do this job. I don’t know why the client keeps repeating that. I asked how can I make it better... I get absolutely nothing. It’s very sad because the time that I spent making everything for the client, I really should have charged more.... but instead I may end up with nothing. I truly feel I should fight it. I’m an honest person and gave 2 pieces of work to try and make my client happy. I still have the 12 pages that was never even sent because the client would not pass the first milestone. That was quite a workload

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

To add, client has already closed the contract. Now client is demanding refund

jmlaidlaw · ‎07-01-2019

Client may well be attempting to get the benefit of your work, yet to pay you nothing -- all by the simple expedient of continuing to claim: "You didn't do it right... You didn't do it right..."

prestonhunter · ‎07-01-2019

re: "To add, client has already closed the contract. Now client is demanding refund"

That means the client has lost all leverage.

She has already left feedback.

So there is really no reason for you to agree to the refund request, unless you definitely want to keep the work for yourself and forfeit all of the money.

If you want any of the money, you may as well reject the refund request completely.

re: "The client keeps stating I’m not qualified to do the job."

At this point, your qualifications are irrelevent. You already did the job. The client hired you to do something, and you did it. The client needs to pay you as agreed.

If the client TRULY does not like your work, then the client may choose to not hire you again in the future. But "not paying" you is not a valid option.

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

Yes that is what I’m getting at. I have a strong feeling that the client wanted to receive the work and then cancel the contract without paying. The client all of a sudden gave an attitude once they received the work

prestonhunter · ‎07-01-2019

re: "I have a strong feeling that the client wanted to receive the work and then cancel the contract without paying"

I think you are right.

I don't think it matters one bit how good your work was. I think the client was ALWAYS planning to try to use your work and pay you nothing for it.

Anonymous-User · ‎07-01-2019

1) If they don't pay for the work , they do not own the work, you do. So she cannot use it. Make sure she is aware of that.

2) Reject the request. Take it to mediation. You can prove you did the work. She has nothing in her hand to play except "I don't like it". And that is not a valid, ethical nor professional reason for a refund.

The only people here that advise freelancers to send the refund, are clients (that also happen to be freelancers). If she learns arbitration is going to cost her an additional $291 and you can prove you did the work with the actual documentation, she'll most likely forfeit the battle. Why? Because clients who never had any intention of paying not are going to pay to keep the scam going.

By walking away and giving her everything, you take a huge hit and it teaches clients like her that it's ok to walk all over freelancers.

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-01-2019

Thank you everyone for having my back! I truly believe we should be paid for the work we put out! I’m going to refuse the refund and fight it! I would be very regretful if I let someone get one over on me when I spent hours of my time to please this client. I take pride in my work and the results I give to others. I appreciate all of the advice

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-02-2019

I already posted 2 topics about my client situation. I am new to upwork so I continue to need advice. I am going to rexplain a little to anyone new to reading what is going on. Client hired me to do an excel spreadsheet because they are opening a new food business. Client also hired me to do a food recall (which was 12 pages). They said they needed a worksheet in case of a food recall to track their products, lot, batches, etc. We agreed to a fix priced with milestones- half at each milestone. I sent the first excel spreadsheet that included in voices, invoice tracking, customer, product info, and locations. Customer came back and said the invoices were ok she needed more info about products. * I kept all convo records for proof*. I said ok, what can I do to make this better for you? I offered some suggestions like keeping the existing spreadsheet and adding more product specific tabs *this is where the customer would add specific insight to better explain their vision* Customer says: “do what you feel is best” I added what she asked for. I added 3 more tabs to the existing spreadsheet and I sent that to my client. I said “please let me know if this works for you” all of a sudden client starts attacking me saying “You are unqualified. You have no idea what you are doing”. I assured her I have experience because I’ve been honest with her since the beginning. She wants to end contract and verbally says that I’m not qualified. Once she says that, I realize she never releases any of the money for the two spreadsheets. So to recap, I gave her what she wanted... she did not like it... I added more of what she asked for the second time... she starts attacking me... I reassure the client I am qualified to do this job and try to work with her.... she wants to cancel the contract. After she cancelled the contract, I then went to the community posts and asked for advice on what to do. I was advised to request the money for my work. Before I could do that, my client sends a message for a full refund for the money in the escrow. So now... my client has 2 spreadsheets of mine unwatermarked... cancelled the contract... and doesn’t want to pay me. On top of that, I made the 12 page food recall personalized for the client and was never able to even send that because they would not accept the first milestone. Also note, the client knew I was working on both at the same time. I disputed this as I was advised by many people to do on my second community post. The client and I are commenting back and forth and the client is blatantly lying and making up things I’ve never said in conversations saying I admitted to never being qualified (untrue). Client is saying I did nothing of what they asked for- I typed out every single tab in the comments of what I did for the client in my excel documents. I took our message convos and copy and pasted them into the comments for the dispute. And now the client is coming out complaining about everything she didn’t like about the excel spreadsheets. But when I asked the client, said none of this in which I would have had the option to fix it. Client says they are not paying because they are apparently not going to use the spreadsheet. Client and I both agreed I would have both the excel and plan done by the following day initially when we first spoke. The client is now saying there is no way anyone can give good work in a 2 day span... What do you see as the outcome? Thoughts?

williambernal · ‎07-02-2019

KC,

Unfortunately it seems you've run across a shady client that doesn't want to pay for delivered work.

This is the reason you should always request an Intitial Milestone Payment to begin work.

File a dispute and hope for the best.

wb

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-02-2019

The client preloaded half of the payment ahead. Once the work was delivered, she did not release it and ended the contract.

lysis10 · ‎07-02-2019

You have to figure out what you'll take as a settlement or decide if you want to put up $291 for arbitration. If the client doesn't pay it, then you win and get the money back.

So when the mediator contacts you, just tell her what you'll settle for (could be everything). You can only dispute what's in escrow so the other half is gone. You have to make sure everything is escrowed upfront before you accept.

mtngigi · ‎07-02-2019

Since you're new, you should know that it is frowned upon to spam the forums by starting a whole new thread about the same situation.

cirbus_katlyn · ‎07-02-2019

The first was on the situation and advice, the second was if I should dispute and the process leading up to the dispute, and third is in the dispute how does that work and the outcomes of dispute. I didn’t want to add them all into the same topic because they are all different questions.