what if the final product isn't anything you discussed?

[2b34f5cf]

Hello Community!

I am reaching out to understand about a project. If I hire a videographer and the final project isn't what we spoke about and the videographer didn't like that I was honest about the final video in a project of several where there were multiple items, he has decided not to make any adjustments nor work with me further all because I was gently honest with him. He never offered to ask what about the project I didn't like or how can we fix the project. To be honest, the creative content was horrible andnot anything we talked about and he assured me before starting that he only wanted me to be happy with the final project of one item. I had to ask him to spell out everything in his invoicing too me with terms of date of completion, how it will be delivered, who holds copyright content once paid etc...

Help, I am new to Upworks.

What next? 

[JoanneP]

Hi Brynn,

I'm sorry to hear that. I checked your account and it looks like you have posted an hourly contract. If you are not happy with the submitted work, you can discuss this with them to request the changes. If in case they do not agree to make the changes needed, you have the option to dispute the payment. For more information, please check this help article. I also noticed that you have not hired a freelancer for the job posted yet. Did you communicate outside of Upwork?

[2b34f5cf]

I am very new to Upworks and  best practises  for hiring.  I read on one of the threads that there was a bit of an issue with a client not liking the work and how that is handled. That is what I am referring to. Also, if you post a job and the person asks for payment outside of Upworks is that allowed or how is that handled? I try and reall all I can on her ebut I have remaining questions as there will be artistic differences.

Thanks

[prestonhunter]

Brynn:
You have come to the right place to ask these questions.

Forum participants like to answer thoughtful, sincere questions such as yours.

We want all Upwork users to undersand the Upwork system as fully as possible, so that they can use it effectively.

re: "What if the final product isn't anything you discussed?"

This is a great question.

The most important part of the answer is knowing what type of service Upwork does and does not provide. Essentially, Upwork provides an incredible powerful and effective way to find, hire and pay freelancers. But Upwork does NOT provide project management services.

You can hire a project manager through Upwork. But Upwork doesn't act as your PM.

It is the responsibility of your project manager to make sure that your project gets completed as you want it to be.

If you don't hire an independent project manager, then YOU are the project manger.
If you don't act as the project manager, then the lead freelancer is the project manager.
Most freelancers can not act effectively as a project manager.

What does this all mean?
Compare this to a film project where a director was hired, but there was no producer.

SOME DIRECTORS WILL DO JUST FINE in this situation, and the film will be a success. Because some film directors can work as a film's producer.

But most CAN NOT.
You probably already know that the "Best Picture" award at the Academy Awards DOES NOT GO TO the director. The award goes to the producer.

If you hire people through Upwork to work on a videography project and the project is a failure, that is the fault of the video's "project manager" or "producer" or whatever title you want to use.

Upwork definitely does NOT offer to do your video production management, and it does not claim to.

One of the MOST IMPORTANT TASKS of a project manager is to review the work done by various people on the team and FIRE THEM if they are not highly valuable to the project. This includes firing the videographer.

If a videographer is not providing the project with excellent, quality work and value, then the project manager should fire the videographer and hire somebody else.

If your project manager did not do that, then the project manager failed in his duties.

Note that YOU DO NOT NEED to hire a project manager.

But if you don't, then you need to either:

a) act as the project manager yourself

[or]

b) only hire a videographer who will act as his own project manager AND provide you with the results that you want.

But given the fact that MOST videographers can NOT succeed as their own project manager on a large project... Aren't you taking a big risk if you hire one and DON'T manage the project yourself or hire somebody to manage it for you?

You asked:

"What next?"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "what next?"

What next is up to you.
You commissioned work through Upwork.
All of the work that you paid for now belongs to you.
You can do whatever you want with it.
You can use it as is. You can modify it. You can shelve it for now.

Unless you and the videographer specifically entered into an alternative contract, virtually EVERY ASPECT of the work that was produced while you paid him belongs to YOU.

So you have no restrictions on what you do with it.

I see that a Forum Moderator mentioned the "dispute" process. It is unlikely that this would yield anything beneficial for you. For the most part, I think disputes are only beneficial to freelancers, not to clients. To be perfectly frank, as this was an hourly contract, it really isn't Upwork's intention that you get any money back from what you paid to a freelancer. Technically it is possible to dispute manually-logged time from the previous week. If the freelancer logged some time manually last week, you have 4 more days to dispute that time, and Upwork will not require you to pay for those time segments. If you do that, you will no longer own the work that was done. My biggest criticism of disputes is that the concept can easily mislead clients into thinking that there is a way to get money back if they aren't satisfied with results, when usually clients can't get back any money at all. The right way for a client to manage projects on Upwork is to pretend that the dispute process doesn't exist at all, and to proactively fire underperforming freelancers BEFORE they log time or get paid any more money..

The Forum Moderator pointed out that you haven't actually hired anybody on Upwork.

If this is all just hypothetical, that is great news. It means that you have learned many important things about using Upwork before making any mistakes or spending any money.

[prestonhunter]

Question: If I hire a videographer and he uses manual time, can I dispute that time?

Answer: Yes. After the work week ends, you have 5 days within which you can dispute any time segments logged during the previous week.

Question: If I hire a videographer and I don't like the work, can I dispute it?
Answer: No. "Not liking" something is not a valid basis for a dispute.

Question: What are valid reasons for disputing hourly time?
Answer: If the time was logged manually, or if the screenshots show the freelancer working on something other than your project (playing video games, shopping on the Web, using Facebook, etc.), or if there are no memos, or if the mouse/keyboard activity levels are extremely low... If any of of these conditions are present then Upwork will automatically remove time segments if you dispute them during the 5-day review period.

Question: What if a freelancer logs time working on a project for me and I can't dispute the results?
Answer: You have the right to ask a freelancer for a refund, but she does not need to give you a refund just because you request that she do so. If you ask nicely, she may well give you a refund and that might be the easiest way to get some money back, if you can explain your reasons and if you understand that she will own the rights to the work. Generally speaking though, hiring somebody to work for you means that you will pay them for their time, regardless of whether or not you say you like the work or not. The best policy is for you to review the work carefully, especially early on, and fire a freelancer whose work you don't like. It is always easier to NOT pay somebody money in the first place than to pay them money and try to get money back.

[2b34f5cf]

Yes, but what if they do the  videography, you never see the shots until they demand money? I have no issues paying for a project but when it is not what was spoke about then I will have to chalk it up to experience with that videographer--lesson learned.  

[2b34f5cf]

What do you mean by manual time? I am not familiar with that or just don't understand the meaning?

[2b34f5cf]

Thank you for the well thought out and  excellent response.

Like I mentioned I am new to hiring and trying to avoid possible issues in the future due to my lack of understanding  of hiring a videographer and not liking what they produced.  If they respond in the following manner;

1. You don't have to like the work  but you must pay me for my time? What then?
2. They do work that you didn't specifically ask for and require payment?
3. The refuse email contact, then decide to contact you when it is convenient for them demanding payment for unfinished work? What then? 
4. What if they requested to be paid outide of Upworks? What then?
5. What if they threaten to take you to small claims court. What then?
6. What if you paid for work completed but did not like  another aspect of a full project they refuse to make good after  explaining to them in a professional manner it just wasn't what you envisioned nor spoke about as a creative content? What then? 

Like I mentioned, I  read through some of the threads here to see if this could be a potential issue with others and one person wrote about his experience with sveral small jobs he lumped into one project and billed accordingly. My hiring a videographer will inlcude some of these aspects.  The videographer will capture video, supposed to use some of the creative abilities  they claim they have and complete other projects that the video will be used for. 

Thank you again for a thoughtful response!

[prestonhunter]

As a client, you will be able to control how much money you pay a freelancer.

There are tons of ways to do this.

You could require the freelancer to send you the shots to look at whenever you want. You don't need to wait.

And you can block the use of manual time if you want to. That way the freelancer can not simply add whatever time they want. They could only log time while actively working on the project. You can view their work in near real time, viewing screenshots that are updated every half hour.

You can also use fixed-price contracts. For example... let's say you want to hire a videographer to film ten separate scenes, each of them one minute in length, each in different locations.

You could set up the contract to fund the first video. The videographer must send you that video before she can get paid. After you see it, if you love it you can release payment and fund the next one. If you don't love the first video, you can CLOSE THE CONTRACT, and there is nothing she can do to stop you from doing so.

So even though the plan was for her to create ten videos, you only paid her for one. This is completely within the rules and is regarded as ethical and professional on the platform.

If you have an hourly contract, you can close the contract AT ANY TIME. If you were using an hourly contract then you could give the freelancer enough time to create a single video, and then you could PAUSE THE CONTRACT. This would block her from logging any more time. You could require that she provide the first video AND all of the files that were used to create it, including all unused footage. She would need to give all of that to you. Then you could review her work. If you love it, you could I pause the contract and let her create another video. If you don't love her first video, you could simply close the contract and not pay her any more money.

If she provided some raw footage that you Iike, you could send that footage to somebody else to edit into a final video. Or you could do it yourself.

You can also control HOW MANY HOURS the freelancer can work per week.

You could set that to any number you want. This could work even if the freelancer needs to use manual time. For example, you could set the number to five. Then tell the freelancer she can do up to five hours of work, and send you all the results. She could log five hours work of work manually, but no more. You could look the work she sends you, and then if you love it, you can increase the number to ten. Then have her send you more work. You can continue doing that, obtaining and archiving video files she sends you, and increasing the time she can log only after you review work and make sure you like it.

Just before the week ends, you can lower the maximum number of hours back to a low number again, if you still want to maintain a high level of control over the work and review it incrementally before authorizing her to log more time and bill more.

You will be fine and you will save money and keep your project on track if you keep a simple mantra in mind:

"Once I pay a freelancer any money, I will never get that money back. I can fire a freelancer any time I want to. There are thousands of other freelancers who will be happy to work on the project. I should never rely on only one to help me. When I find freelancers I like, I can treat them well and continue working with them."

[prestonhunter]

re: "What if they threaten to take you to small claims court. What then?"

That is not going to happen.

You (hypothetically) hired a freelancer to make a video for you. She made a video for you. You paid her for the video.

Why in the world would she try to take you to court? That makes no sense.

If she threatens you like that, just block her.

If she went to an attorney, the attorney would ask her what the basis of her claim is. What is she going to say? That she doesn't like your cat? Nobody is going to take her case.

[prestonhunter]

re: "The refuse email contact, then decide to contact you when it is convenient for them demanding payment for unfinished work? What then?"

You can require a freelancer use any communication method that you want, with any level of frequency.

You can require daily Zoom meetings.

You can require an email message twice a day.

You can require she post a photo on Instagram.

Whatever you want.

If you say that a freelancer must respond to your emails every day, then that is what she must do. And if she does not do so, then you may fire her and continue working with the other members of your team.

Upwork places no limits in how you communicate with freelancers.

[feed_my_eyes]

If you paid this person off of Upwork (and it sounds like you did, because Joanne says that you didn't officially hire anyone through here) then Upwork cannot help you get any money back. This is a serious violation of their terms of service, and hopefully Upwork will ban this freelancer's account if you give them further details. Next time, don't hesitate to end a contract if your freelancer isn't working out - it sounds like there were numerous red flags with this one.

[prestonhunter]

re: "If you paid this person off of Upwork (and it sounds like you did, because Joanne says that you didn't officially hire anyone through here)..."

Perhaps. But the original poster also said multiple times that she was reading extensively in the Forum... reading about things that happened to other people. So this could all be hypothetical.

To her credit, the original poster already knows that all payments must be made on the platform and that if a client paid a freelancer off-platform, that Upwork would not be involved in getting any money back. Whatever has happened in the past, it sounds like the client really wants to understand best practices for hiring in the future.

[2b34f5cf]

1. What if you contacted them asking for updates and they never contacted you back then suddenly demand payment for work after they re-surface yet I have never seen video?  I have only seen a 2 minute promo so I didn't know the direction he was going even though I tried contacting him.  Then he re-appears again claiming he got sick  from coming and filming in a studio?   
2. You hire the videographer to also do other smaller items like a  1  minute promo video? They do it you pay for it . Next, you schedule a meeting for them to film in a home studio location. The final video is never seen even when asked about it. They only show a  long 3 minute promo video that wasn't what you spoke about nor liked in the end and can not use. I never saw any raw video that I am expected to pay for that was used for the long promo video. I never realized I could ask for daily updates and to see the footage being used in another segment of the hire which was a short and long promo. Two seperate items. One would use some of the video and one no video the videographer shot was used.  Stock video was used by an account they keep. 
3. My critisism was very professional and did not include anything deragatory. I mentioned I didn't like the creative content and the direction and it was not what I had spoken to them about  after providing examples of what I was trying for. They claimed to know the best direction and I trusted their artistic vision but never got updates. Now, they want to sue me for $600 of  video work I have never seen  and only put in a  long promo video that was not what we discussed. I don;t mind paying for a videographer's time but if they go silent and I can't get  a hold of them until they demand payment then what? 
4. Oddly, there was a change in tone from the first meeting to the next.  I think they knew if they showed up and just did what they wanted they could then ask for  payment and then  make claims to sue me. even if I will never use the video. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "You don't have to like the work  but you must pay me for my time? What then?"

Well... that is true.

The way to respond is to close the contract. But don't try to get any money back.

There are limited ways to avoid paying a freelancer for her time. If she logged time manually, you can dispute hours from the previous week. I have discussed this in more detail elsewhere in this thread. But I don't actually recommend that. It IS dishonest for a client to dispute manual time just to avoid paying for work they don't like. It is a better practice to plan to NEVER dispute, but to proactively review a freelancer's work and close a contract on a freelancer if you don't love her work.