🐈
» Groups » Writers & Translators » Forum » Re: Copywriting: How does freelancer really g...
Page options
04a394ce
Community Member

Copywriting: How does freelancer really get the understanding needed to write on *this* topic well?

As a client with a lot of work that needs to get done and not enough time in my day to get everything done, and it is worth money to get it done, it seems like a natural fit to come to Upwork to find someone that can do some of my outsourceable tasks and pay them to do so.

 

One of those tasks is to take one of our websites up to the next level, with the metric of increased conversion (viewers converted to people that inquire, with a good enough fit that more end up purchasing).

 

One part of that is writing the words to go on the revised website.

 

I'm not looking for someone to just throw together some words that are good English grammar.  This is a specialty area and needs to say the right words that will convey we really know what we are talking about (and convey that reaching out to us will not be a waste of their busy time).

 

We already have a website.  We need to bring it up to the next level.

 

So, I posted a job and hired, and now things are not coming to a better result than I already had.

 

I am not experienced at hiring copywriters, so I want to understand how to do this right.

 

My most basic question is: Whose job is it to figure out the procedure to get the freelancer up to speed?  Of course we supply them with things like our existing website with many pages of content, a number of client success-studies/case-histories, and what we have figured out are key things to convey, also a proposed style and look.  That was done.  But how do we bridge the gap of them having no knowledge of the industry?   How would any copywriter come up to speed and write better than what we already have?  I would think that would be one of the most basic skills a copywriter would need to be extremely good at (or else they could only write well for topics they already know).

And then the next step is how to constructively respond when they submit a first-draft and it understandably is far from the mark in my estimation (but maybe they are almost there?  As ana analogy, I think of going a few miles to the next city is a big task, but when I'm in a jet going 550 miles per hour, I went that far perhaps while stirring my coffee -- the analogy is meant that things can seem far but a small change can sometimes make all the difference). 

 

Do I just not have the right person hired? Are there freelancers on upwork that really know how to do that, that know exactly what questions to ask me that are easy for me to answer, so they can write those magic words?  Or is it my job to basically tell them what to write, and /or how do I teach them what they need to know?

 

How have others made this work really well, for a client that is really busy?
I'd like to make sure my expectations are realistic, and everyone ends up happy.

27 REPLIES 27
joansands
Community Member

Your job is to say what you want to be done - and then try to find the person who will do what you want. It might pay to look at the kinds of jobs the freelancer has already done - and it just might take some trial and error. 

abinadab-agbo
Community Member

As a client, you don't have to write the articles by yourself.

If your interactions with the freelancer feel like you are actually writing the content yourself, walking the writer every step as though (s)he was in KG, then you've hired the wrong person. Hire a highly intelligent writer that can find your business' pulse and feel it really fast.

 

Still, when you find the right person, the writer who gets you, expect to get only as much as you put in the relationship. This is how all relationships work. You must be willing to invest some time to get your writer up to speed. When you finally find that writer, and invest such time in that writer, you must also be willing to stay with that writer and continue to build the relationship, so you don't go through an unnecessary pain of starting afresh with another writer.

 

I completely agree with you.  Actually this is just a starter job to get a feel if they can do it, that if the freelancer works out and "gets it" and can write things after this without a lot of my hours needed, I would love to hire them for job after job every month.

 

I would guess I have invested at least 5 hours getting them material and in discussions (messaging back and forth).  (I wasn't running an hour meter on my end, coule be 3 could be 10 hours).

colettelewis
Community Member


j p wrote:

As a client with a lot of work that needs to get done and not enough time in my day to get everything done, and it is worth money to get it done, it seems like a natural fit to come to Upwork to find someone that can do some of my outsourceable tasks and pay them to do so.

 

One of those tasks is to take one of our websites up to the next level, with the metric of increased conversion (viewers converted to people that inquire, with a good enough fit that more end up purchasing).

 

One part of that is writing the words to go on the revised website.

 

I'm not looking for someone to just throw together some words that are good English grammar.  This is a specialty area and needs to say the right words that will convey we really know what we are talking about (and convey that reaching out to us will not be a waste of their busy time).

 

We already have a website.  We need to bring it up to the next level.

 

So, I posted a job and hired, and now things are not coming to a better result than I already had.

 

I am not experienced at hiring copywriters, so I want to understand how to do this right.

 

My most basic question is: Whose job is it to figure out the procedure to get the freelancer up to speed?  Of course we supply them with things like our existing website with many pages of content, a number of client success-studies/case-histories, and what we have figured out are key things to convey, also a proposed style and look.  That was done.  But how do we bridge the gap of them having no knowledge of the industry?   How would any copywriter come up to speed and write better than what we already have?  I would think that would be one of the most basic skills a copywriter would need to be extremely good at (or else they could only write well for topics they already know).

And then the next step is how to constructively respond when they submit a first-draft and it understandably is far from the mark in my estimation (but maybe they are almost there?  As ana analogy, I think of going a few miles to the next city is a big task, but when I'm in a jet going 550 miles per hour, I went that far perhaps while stirring my coffee -- the analogy is meant that things can seem far but a small change can sometimes make all the difference). 

 

Do I just not have the right person hired? Are there freelancers on upwork that really know how to do that, that know exactly what questions to ask me that are easy for me to answer, so they can write those magic words?  Or is it my job to basically tell them what to write, and /or how do I teach them what they need to know?

 

How have others made this work really well, for a client that is really busy?
I'd like to make sure my expectations are realistic, and everyone ends up happy.


___________________________________________

You get what you pay for. You need to go for top end and pay a marketing copy writer to deliver what you are looking for. This would be an experienced, top rated  specialist who charges in the region of $100 per hour. 


Nichola L wrote:


___________________________________________

You get what you pay for. You need to go for top end and pay a marketing copy writer to deliver what you are looking for. This would be an experienced, top rated  specialist who charges in the region of $100 per hour. 


While I'm pretty darn sure the OP isn't paying that writer $100/hr, it's also likely he isn't paying rock bottom rates either.

I think the issue is more than just pay here.

 


Abinadab A wrote:

Nichola L wrote:


___________________________________________

You get what you pay for. You need to go for top end and pay a marketing copy writer to deliver what you are looking for. This would be an experienced, top rated  specialist who charges in the region of $100 per hour. 


While I'm pretty darn sure the OP isn't paying that writer $100/hr, it's also likely he isn't paying rock bottom rates either.

I think the issue is more than just pay here.

 


_______________________

That is exactly my point. The issue is finding someone who is going to deliver what the OP requires. I do not think the OP is going to find this among well-meaning but inexperienced writers.  Good copy writers who know what they are doing do not come cheap. 

I have seen one person agonize for hours and not get something right.  The other day I asked another person about what to say, and in 15 minutes they had it pretty close.  To me hours are no connection to results.  The world will turn 1/24th of a revolution whether they are working hard or distracted or in a mental block.

 

An hour of what? Hard research that gets words they write? Mental meandering? writing then correcting?

 

To give another example, a business person I know (also top management of his company) told me the story of he hired people in India for 1/4 the cost -- and they took 4 times as long.

 

In another example, someone told me that the way they do business is stack several clients and bill them all for the time spent -- multiply the hourly pay!  (I hope no one thinks this is a great idea -- that group dissappeared from busniness as far as I know).

 

My conclusion is hours mean nothing.

 

Therefore the logical thing seems to be to hire at a fixed cost for the project, with milestones.  The result will be worth $__ to me.  And that is what I did.

 

If they are experienced, I expect them to figure out on their end how long it will take *them* and work out the price before we start the job.  And that is what we did.  That seems fairest to me.  If I did not have enough in the budget, then say so up front.

 

As to my style of working, there have been a number of projects (not copywriting) where when we got into it, we found the task was larger than originally understood by both of us, and I could see they were making good progress and the results were worth what they had done so far, so we increased the budget -- sometimes several times the original contracted price.  So I'm not one to hold one to the fire on that price if they are really doing a great job.  But to do that, I sometimes offer a bit lower up front, expecting that I will increase as needed.

 

But, I do wonder, how long should it take someone to write a web-page from unknown to fully completed? (answer of course is "That depends", but let's get a ballpark, just like the ballpark of $100/hr).

 


j p wrote:

 

...But, I do wonder, how long should it take someone to write a web-page from unknown to fully completed? (answer of course is "That depends", but let's get a ballpark, just like the ballpark of $100/hr).


You say ballpark, I say benchmark. I use the rate survey from the Editorial Freelancers Association.

 

Having calculated that I perform the editorial tasks I offer at industry-standard paces, I can evaluate a client's needs, give them the right name for the kind of service they're looking for, and point them to its market price—whether they prefer paying by the word, the hour, or the job.

One that I hired says on his profile $80/hr.  But what does that mean?  Anyone can put whatever they want on their profile.
I can tell from messaging that he is definitely experienced, although not many jobs on upwork.

So it brings up the topic of experience does not equal ability on the task I need.

 

So maybe a better question I should have asked is for him to lay out in detail what his process is for getting a solid footing on understanding?

 

I didn't push for too lengthy a conversation up front about that detail because we talked at length about some other things, and at some point both the freelancer and the client can put only so much time into the pre-contract discussion.

 

From someone who used to have the problem you describe: It isn't a copywriter job, it's an SEO-related job. I got 0 hits on my website until I finally went to the big dogs that understand SEO. I now have great placement on the web and my website is getting much better attention. I don't even know what you call this work on Upwork, but I do know that if an applicant asks you what SEO is or how it works.....don't use them.

tlsanders
Community Member

This sounds like a lot of extra work to do (perhaps enough to defeat the purpose in hiring an outside writer) versus just hiring a writer with industry experience. Unless you're in such a tiny niche that virtually no one else does what you do, there are writers out there with a foundational understanding of your industry that you can easily build on with specifics.

 

The issue you're describing is common in my industry, and I am very often hired to rewrite content that was created by someone without that knowledge--usually because the client tried to save money on the first round and found out that you can't sound like an expert by having a non-expert create your content.


Tiffany S wrote:

This sounds like a lot of extra work to do (perhaps enough to defeat the purpose in hiring an outside writer) versus just hiring a writer with industry experience. Unless you're in such a tiny niche that virtually no one else does what you do, there are writers out there with a foundational understanding of your industry that you can easily build on with specifics.

 

The issue you're describing is common in my industry, and I am very often hired to rewrite content that was created by someone without that knowledge--usually because the client tried to save money on the first round and found out that you can't sound like an expert by having a non-expert create your content.


While you may have skills from both ends (i.e. writing and industry experience {all lawyers must write lots as part of their career, mustn't they}) a lot of hiring managers in a variety of niches have had to grapple with the fact that often, the ones with industry experience don't have writing skills, or are just not interested in writing, and the ones who know how to write may not know the industry as much as the ones in the industry. 

Whatever the case, I think the OP needs to try harder. His writer is out there. Whether his niche be neurosurgery or rocket science.

He should just make sure he doesn't hire a writter (one who doesn't know how to spell his job title), but rather, a writer.

I really appreciate your suggestion, so I went to go check, and so searched to find a freelancer.  I put in a key term in our industry and "copywriter".  Suprise, 6 freelancers showed up.  The problem is none of their writing is really engaging.

 

So I think it is as last noted: Some people might be familiar with the industry but don't write well -- the copy they write I don't think would engage and create conversions.

 

So now back to my original question: If a copywriter wants the job, can I expect that part of the job I would expect them to do is to ask the me questions and do the research to get themselves up to speed to be able to write really well?

Yes, you are right that at some point one has to "take the plunge" and enter a contract.  And sorry I was not clear -- I am coming here after I did that and things did not go as I think they should have.  The reason I came here is to find out what are proper expectations, and what is right. 

 

After I give the freelancer all the information I can think of (which might be incomplete for their needs), what should I expect?  Should I expect that a professional copywriter will be able to ask me questions (that I am able to answer) to get all the information they need to really get a result of:
Copy that will engage the viewer, sound like we know what we are talking about (build trust), have empathy with the viewer; and if our product is a good fit, that the percentage of viewer conversions into a sales inquiry should be high?  (nothing is perfect, just looking to get things to the next level).

 

As to the statement that one will know if one has a professional freelancer by the price they charge per hour, my experience is that is half true and half not.  It is true that a professional values their time, it is also sadly true that some people charge a lot of money but don't get results.   And some people are professional, but just not the right fit for the kind of work we need (there are lots of different area of writing out there -- a writer that is good at writing enticing copy for people to go on a certain vacation might not write well for people that want to buy a car).

 

And my comments about hours I realize might have upset some people.  If so, sorry.  In fact I am willing to pay someone far more than $100/hr because I do not care if they get the high quality result in only 30 minutes of time.  Get the high quality result in 33 minutes and I will pay you $300/hr as far as I am concerned.  Or someone else can get the job done in 1 hour and I pay them $100/hr, or someone else takes 5 hours and that is worth 1/5th, just an example.

 

The $$ amount I offered got several professional's official proposals, so that seems to indicate I was in the right range.  (I think if the job was too little $$, professsionals would not give me a proposal -- or they would reply with a higher number that works for them).


j p wrote:

 

After I give the freelancer all the information I can think of (which might be incomplete for their needs), what should I expect?  Should I expect that a professional copywriter will be able to ask me questions (that I am able to answer) to get all the information they need.


Yes. I believe that any truly professional freelancer would not even think of accepting a project without getting a clear brief from the client first; otherwise how would they know if they're the right person for the job? It's always great if a client provides a detailed brief and full instructions without being prompted, but if they don't, then it's the freelancer's responsibility to ask the right questions and obtain clarifications. 


Christine A wrote:

j p wrote:

 

After I give the freelancer all the information I can think of (which might be incomplete for their needs), what should I expect?  Should I expect that a professional copywriter will be able to ask me questions (that I am able to answer) to get all the information they need.


Yes. I believe that any truly professional freelancer would not even think of accepting a project without getting a clear brief from the client first; otherwise how would they know if they're the right person for the job? It's always great if a client provides a detailed brief and full instructions without being prompted, but if they don't, then it's the freelancer's responsibility to ask the right questions and obtain clarifications. 


I'm not sure whether to be insulted or just point out that every writer is different, but I'm happily and successfully 30 years in and I can count on my fingers the number of "briefs" I've gotten in advance of projects. In fact, a great many of my clients hire me precisely because I know what's needed and they don't have to make the investment in figuring it out.

After I give the freelancer all the information I can think of (which might be incomplete for their needs), what should I expect?  Should I expect that a professional copywriter will be able to ask me questions (that I am able to answer) to get all the information they need to really get a result of

 

The short answer is yes. Do you clearly know/understand the target reader? Some clients do not (or think they do, but they actually don't) which requires me to do a deeper needs assessment dive. 

lysis10
Community Member

And then the next step is how to constructively respond when they submit a first-draft and it understandably is far from the mark in my estimation

 

We can't see what you're communicating with your freelancer, but IME some clients just give a topic and let you run with it and whatever way you go they are happy with. Others have very specific requirements and want you to cover them. I can go either way, but if a client wants something specific they need to communicate with me.

 

There is the chance you're not hiring someone with industry specific experience, and in that case it will always be lame. You need someone with experience to speak authoritatively or you'll just get some generalist garbage rewritten from Wikipedia.

JP, as Kat mentioned, knowing your target audience is possibly more important than anything.  Unles subject matter and intended audience are highly technical, medical, scientific, or legal, most websites speak to (sell to) users less well versed in the end product than the company selling it.

 

Examples:

1. what excites a chef about an extraordinary piece of fish is not what excites the person paying for and eating the same piece of fish.

2. a widget that the developer, R&D dept., owner, and producer think is brilliant only sells to the buying public if it solves their problems.  In simple, direct, non-salesy, and non-flowery language.

 

ruth_bowles
Community Member

JP, 

I the advice given here is all great stuff. Yes, a professional should be able to "know what they don't know" and then ask you about it. It may work out better if you look for people who have the potential to create the sort of copy you need. 

 

For example, if you specialized in blockchain, you might look for a broader tech writer. Their samples should indicate that they have the capacity to understand blockchain well, when compared to someone without any tech industry/writing experience. 

 

If you feel like you really have something specialized, then an interview once the research is done is what I normally request as a writer. Especially in fields where different processes and perspectives are differentiating factors among competitors. 

9d1b571c
Community Member


Do I just not have the right person hired? Are there freelancers on upwork that really know how to do that, that know exactly what questions to ask me that are easy for me to answer, so they can write those magic words?  Or is it my job to basically tell them what to write, and /or how do I teach them what they need to know?

 

How have others made this work really well, for a client that is really busy?
I'd like to make sure my expectations are realistic, and everyone ends up happy.


Lots of posts but not many answers, so here's mine.

 

You hired the wrong person.

You're right that you don't need any type of writer but a specialised writer. I'll add that you need a sale copy writer experienced in writing long/short form ad, email, newsletters, squeeze pages etc.

 

No you should not have to babysit freelancers who are (supposedly) familiar with your industry or topic.

There are some good writers out there (I found one yrs ago in a previous life of this site) and expect to pay $4-500 for a long form good converting page or too.

Imo it's harder to find these people now that you can't see the projects board list. Unless the link is now hidden somewhere.

Yes, this was what I was going to say. Sounds like your copywriter just isn't the right fit for you. That happens. There are many professionals out there who can dive into new topics and figure it out quickly and give you what you want/need. Others lack the experience to digest and become fluent in a topic quickly. They aren't bad, just lack experience or skills and are lower career level. If their experience happens to be in your field, it may work out. If it's a new field for them, probably won't be a good fit. 

 

I'm not a copywriter but a grant writer, which also includes writing copy. Example: A neuroscientist asked me to work on a grant with him. I have no experience in neurogenomics, but I have experience with these grants and with medical/science research. I am comfortable getting up to speed quickly, and he is also aware that I will need his assistance with some technical content. It's a give and take. It's unlikely he will find another neuroscientist who is a grant writer, because other neuroscientists are, you know, doing neuroscience research. 

 

So there are some give and takes you have to consider when hiring a writer. There are writers who are specific to your field, who can run with the topic quickly. There are those that are used to switching to new fields and figuring it out quickly. There are those that won't come up to speed quickly. Regardless, you will have to spend some time collaborating (at the least reviewing and giving your feedback to make sure it's what you want). But it sounds like you are spending far more time than is reasonable for what you want and need. 

 

Maybe on the next round of hiring make sure they have direct experience writing for your industry and also talk about the process and how you would like it to go, and how long you want it to take. The more specific you are about your expectations, the more likely you will be to match with a writer who will meet your needs. 

 

alphazomgy
Community Member

Read your posts JP.

 

If you want to know whether a freelancer is worth their hourly rate, check out their job history.

 

99% of the copywriters and marketers with hourly rates over $100/hr actually get paid way less than that.

 

I hate those commodities with a passion. 

As a writer with a published rate of over $100 p/h I beg to differ w/ Alexander B's erroneous statement.

 

All of my current open hourly jobs reflect the rate of $125 p/h or $135 p/h.  Why the $10 difference?  Because the start dates of those hourly jobs reflected my hourly rate when I began the job.

 

Yes, I honor old rates for clients when the work is consistent, I know and like the client and the project ... and because I find it the right thing to do.

 

My fixed price jobs are based on my estimate of the number of hours needed X my published hourly rate.

 

The other professional writers and editors I know operate on exactly these principles.  And almost all of the writers I'm referring to have rates of $100 p/h or more.

 

Alexnder, please do not make generalized statements - especially when you have no idea of what you are talking about. Spreading false info wins you no points ...just a lot of disgust.

Wendy, I give you a multitude of kudos for your post. I am not a writer per se, but the excellent writers I know all bill at or in excess of $100 per hour, and they are worth every penny.

 

I wonder if "stirring the pot" by posting uninformed drivel is the New Thing.  Hopefully not, as it's terribly unprofessional at best.

Seriously, my hourly rate is kind of meaningless. I've worked for more and for less. I certainly have a minimum that I won't work for less than, but sometimes I take jobs near the lower end of what I'm willing to accept because I'm interested in adding that project to my portolio. For me, my hourly rate is kind of there for people who might invite me to their project, so they know the ballpark range of what to expect. Listing it certainly isn't a guarantee of the rate or anything else. 


Alexander B wrote:

 

99% of the copywriters and marketers with hourly rates over $100/hr actually get paid way less than that.

 

Do you make up statistics out of thin air in your client work or just your personal communications?