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mugita31
Community Member

Should I use Native or Fluent?

Hey guys, so lately this issue has been bugging me and I'm torn between keeping my 'Verified' fluent badge, or just changing to native English speaker alltogether! Of late, I've noticed some lucrative job opportunities being posted on Upwork where the client strictly places "Native or Bilingual" as one of their preferences in the job search. In some of the jobs in question, I strongly believe that I am qualified and even take time writing an award-winning proposal! What's funny is that in most cases, I rarely get an interview or my proposal is shunned without the even having a peek at  my profile. Why? Because of the Native English criteria that gives them a red flag. Now, I'm not the type of person to lie about my country of origin or anything, but is there anyway Upwork can modify this setup to benefit proven English freelancers with native writing proficiency? I fully understand that I am not native, but at least could there be a category such as 'Native writing proficiency' or something of the sort. Thanks!

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petra_r
Community Member


@Louis M wrote:

I fully understand that I am not native, but at least could there be a category such as 'Native writing proficiency' or something of the sort. Thanks!


 That is, surely, what the "bilingual" part of "native or bilingual" stamps for, wouldn't you say? 

 

However, looking at your overview and the (minor but noticeable, and typical for a ESL speaker) mistakes and the way you write I would suggest you stay clear of the native/bilingual thing. Over-promising and under-delivering is always a surefire way to bad client outcomes.

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petra_r
Community Member


@Louis M wrote:

I fully understand that I am not native, but at least could there be a category such as 'Native writing proficiency' or something of the sort. Thanks!


 That is, surely, what the "bilingual" part of "native or bilingual" stamps for, wouldn't you say? 

 

However, looking at your overview and the (minor but noticeable, and typical for a ESL speaker) mistakes and the way you write I would suggest you stay clear of the native/bilingual thing. Over-promising and under-delivering is always a surefire way to bad client outcomes.

mugita31
Community Member

Hey Petra, thanks for your response. However, just to clear up some things; how one texts isn't similar to how one writes a sales-page or a blog. Also, by having a look at 'how I text', you have deduced that I am a basic ESL speaker. I might have made a few mistakes here and there (don't we all do) while typing, but I think that's pretty normal across the board. And this is exactly what I am talking about. You have looked at it with a rather biased perspective. Ironing out the so-called 'mistakes' in my overview. Now, imagine the same case scenario with a client who's already gotten the red flag that I am not a "Native or Bilingual" English speaker. The same biased notion will kick in even before they review my proposal. And the above example proves case in point.

Personally, I've hired some Native English speakers who have delivered sub-standard work, while others were amazing! Now, don't get me wrong, you have every right to voice your opinion. I just feel that Upwork should introduce a 'Native or Bilingual" verification system which makes it easier for qualified non-native freelancers to bid on an equal playing field. So that we no longer have to feel disadvantaged whenever the 'Native English Speakers Only' phrase pops up somewhere in a job posting. Thank you!

petra_r
Community Member


@Louis M wrote:

You have looked at it with a rather biased perspective. Ironing out the so-called 'mistakes' in my overview. Now, imagine the same case scenario with a client who's already gotten the red flag that I am not a "Native or Bilingual" English speaker. The same biased notion will kick in even before they review my proposal. And the above example proves case in point.


Bias would be an unfair prejudice. Judging something on its actual merit is neither unfair nor prejudiced.

 

The case in point is that you do not write the way a native English speaker would write, you write the way someone from your country writes.

 

It's a bit like being dead, you know? Dead people don't know they're dead, so it doesn't bother them. It's only painful for all those around them.....

mugita31
Community Member

Hey Petra, thanks again for your response. 

I am rather intrigued with this statement:

'The case in point is that you do not write the way a native English speaker would write, you write the way someone from your country writes.'

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are about 6 countries considered to have Native speakers of the English language. These are; The United Kingdom, The United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and to some greater extent, South Africa. Each of these countries is located in different continents (save for New Zealand and Australia which are both in Oceania) (Canada and the USA, North America). And as I'm sure you know, the English spoken in each of these countries varies slightly in terms of pronunciation, idiomatic expressions, and in some special cases, sentence structure. Secondly, different words have different meanings; for example, 'gas' in the United States is 'petrol' in the United Kingdom. Now, here is my two cents; the whole concept of claiming that 'I write as someone from my country writes' holds no merit because of the following reasons. First of all, the level of education plays a very critical role in how one articulates themselves both in person and on paper. A foreigner who has studied in a native English speaking country will definitely be well-versed in the language, just as his or her native companions are. Secondly, there is the whole concept of language evolution that has taken place in each of these countries due to changes in both cultural and social norms. Now, stating all this, can you really say that 'I write like someone from my country writes'? For all we know, I could have been schooled in New Zealand before relocating to my native country. Secondly, all countries that were under Imperial British rule do infact follow the standard English curriculum (GCSE and IGCSE, as well as a modified version that retains key aspects of the curriculum). Which means that there should be no variation in writing whatsoever. The only thing that does change is the accent. Now, unless you have studied each and every one of the curriculums of the aforementioned countries, then there is no way you can determine 'how one writes or does not write' as 'native or non-native'. 

On a final note, I have never had a client call me out on my ESL skills, as you put it. Neither have I gotten a negative review based on how poorly I articulated myself. That being said, perhaps one can be perceived as dead by a select few, only to be seen as vibrant by the thousands he meets along the way. 

 

petra_r
Community Member

OK then.

 

Good luck with that.

lysis10
Community Member

ugh, this is stupid. Buddy, nobody has called you out because they know they are getting an ESL. What are they going to do? Call you out as an ESL when you're obviously one and openly admit to it?

 

The thing you don't get is that you can't really be "native" unless you live in a country where it's everywhere. Also, ESLs don't usually understand the nuances of the language and take things almost too literally. They don't pick up on the nuances that make a sentence mean something different than what is actually written. Sarcasm and humor are two big ones that ESLs don't seem to pick up from English writing. 

 

I grew up in Miami with a lot of 2nd gen cubans. My first bf was cuban. My friends were cuban. Really, I was a minority. Most of them spoke spanish and some of them even their parents couldn't really speak english. One common thing their parents always said was that their spanish sucked. Not because they didn't speak it at home, but when they went to school and just did everyday life they spoke English. That's the problem. If you aren't in a country where you have to interact with people, you aren't going to pick it up at the same level.

I think Louis can safely put native/bilingual for his English. He certainly writes it very much better than many native English speakers I have come across in the editing field.

 

Swahili and English are the official languages in Kenya, with Swahili as the lingua franca. (There are, of course, many other dialects).

 

 

Hello Nichola,

You are a breath of fresh air! Thank you so much for the positive response 🙂

Regards,

Louis 🙂

researchediting
Community Member

Louis,

Writers and editors here will cut a great deal of slack for nonstandard English usage among people who do not claim to be English language experts. I'm afraid, however, we are rather ruthless in criticizing those who do—and no allowance is typically made for any degree of informality in the professional correspondence we conduct here in the forum. At least one possible typo or "edito" in your original post does indeed sound like a mistake typical of a non-native speaker, and is unlikely to be a standard feature of any of the varieties of English you subsequently list. Depending on my hypothetical needs as a quite hypothetical client, such an apparent error in a proposal might most likely cause me to stop reading and dismiss. I did not notice any such red flags in a quick glance at your profile. 

By its nature, "native/bilingual" status (in the world, not just on Upwork) is not subject to testing. It is an aspect of one's personal history. Proficiency equivalent to that status is problematic to test. (You might look at the Upwork/Duolingo testing options to see if they are any use to you.) 

 

As Nichola points out, when evaluating proficiency, education often trumps nativity. I would suggest looking at how Upwork's descriptions of each language level distinguish between them, then honestly evaluating which level matches your proficiency and whether you need to restrict yourself to any particular national or regional varieties of English. As Petra points out, the last thing you want to do is overpromise and underdeliver. There's no point in garnering more contracts if it leaves you with a trail of dissatisfied clients. And while proficiency level on Upwork is self-reported, it is also subject to correction by Upwork based on client feedback, 

Best,

Michael

researchediting
Community Member

By the way, preferences are never "strict." Many contractors consistently report that if they can make the case for being the best choice, they can get hired despite not meeting clients' posted preferences or requirements.

As for clients who micromanage, yell, or are snide about their requirements in their posts, one can expect the same from them in a working relationship. Who needs it?

Okay, but what if a client (especially a native English speaking client) has native/bilingual as a preference, and I approach them with "Hey, I am not a native and it is obvious, but I will outsource my work to a professional native English speaking editor at no extra cost for you" and a sample of my edited text. Can it be enough to convince if they liked the piece submitted? Maybe it can, but the red flag of not meeting a quantitative criterion will let them turn it down without even thinking to check what's in the cover letter.


@Miroslav M wrote:

Okay, but what if a client (especially a native English speaking client) has native/bilingual as a preference, and I approach them with "Hey, I am not a native and it is obvious, but I will outsource my work to a professional native English speaking editor at no extra cost for you"


 No client (or none with an ounce of sense) is going to believe a word of that because financially it simply does not add up.

 

Clients see that you typically work at $ 5 to $ 15 (generally below $ 10 an hour) and unless they are outright stupid they also know that there isn't a cat in hell's chance of you being able to pay a "professional native English speaking editor" on the rates you charge. They know you would end up paying more to the editor than you make yourself unless you were seriously playing the clock.

 

If you WERE to charge the kind of rates that could, conceivably, include paying a "professional native English speaking editor" - why would the client pay for an obviously non-native writer who needs to pay a native speaking editor when they could get a native speaker at the same rate?

 

Edited to add: Your signature line is terribly confusing as it looks like it is part of your post and appears random and off topic...

 at the proposed tates. I think that is more worrying than whether someone on the forum asksequired language.Please, I asked for a constructive opinion, not your picking on me about me "charging low rates".  I did not ask what I am doing wrong, I just asked a question not related to me. I can agree or disagree with someone but I shall never chase someone's posts just looking for ways to show disrespect to them. If it is your need please find someone else.

 

I highly appreciate the experience and expertise of all the senior members of this forum, and you are certainly one of them. But you should at least tell things in a polite manner. And yes, I was a "cheapo" writer before, I regret that, but now I am staying away from writing jobs on Upwork, previous clients being the only exception. I reckon the market perspectives to be a well-paid writer on here are not good for me for the aforementioned reason. Also, the median rate for those who require a "native English speaker" is no greater than the rates you accused me to keep charging my clients.  I admit I could not have found myself there, I partly withdrew from the market, found something elsewhere I do not feel less valuable just because I am not a native speaker of the required language, and in many cases, I find that kind of client requirements reasonable.

 

So do these $10/piece "native English speaker only" clients get exactly the native writers From what I can see in their "client history" it turns out that they often do, And they live in the most developed parts where hourly rates are four to five times higher. I doubt they find time to research, write, read and edit 1,000 words in a 15-minute timeframe.

Miroslav, you asked

 

" but what if a client (especially a native English speaking client) has native/bilingual as a preference, and I approach them with "Hey, I am not a native and it is obvious, but I will outsource my work to a professional native English speaking editor at no extra cost for you" 

 

I merely pointed out, factually, why that isn't going to work, that's all.

 

 

How about the case of someone who is asking for $200 a piece and has a good record of such jobs. Who would you choose: a native speaker who delivers in many niches saying they wrote one or two such pieces on the subject matter, or a non-native expert in the field/niche saying they will outsource the editing and proofreading part to a native speaking professional editor?

 

 


@Miroslav M wrote:

How about the case of someone who is asking for $200 a piece and has a good record of such jobs. Who would you choose: a native speaker who delivers in many niches saying they wrote one or two such pieces on the subject matter, or a non-native expert in the field/niche saying they will outsource the editing and proofreading part to a native speaking professional editor?

 

 


 Is this a rhetorical question?

 

If it is not, and you are referring to yourself you have one major  problem:

 

Finding an Upwork client willing  to pay a generalist writer, which you seem to be according to your profile, $200 for a single piece of web content.

 

 


@Miroslav M wrote:

How about the case of someone who is asking for $200 a piece and has a good record of such jobs. Who would you choose: a native speaker who delivers in many niches saying they wrote one or two such pieces on the subject matter, or a non-native expert in the field/niche saying they will outsource the editing and proofreading part to a native speaking professional editor?

 



Some of my favourite writers in my special areas of interest are not native English speakers. They are, however, "gods" in their chosen fields, are "names" (well known in their field)  and have unique "voices". I would hire them in a heartbeat if I could afford them. Sure, there may be some editing required but at that level the cost of an editor would ne a minimal percentage of the overall budget.

For "general" stuff I'd go with a native every time.

If I needed specialists - and they were not native, I'd have them write in their own language 9 times out of ten, and get it translated.  I have done this in the past for something scientific.


@Miroslav M wrote:

How about the case of someone who is asking for $200 a piece and has a good record of such jobs. Who would you choose: a native speaker who delivers in many niches saying they wrote one or two such pieces on the subject matter, or a non-native expert in the field/niche saying they will outsource the editing and proofreading part to a native speaking professional editor?

 

 


Some clients might hire you. I have a non-Upwork client who frequently hires me to edit articles and blog posts. One of their writers clearly is not a native English writer.  I assume they hired that writer for expertise in a specific field. I assume it would depend whether these clients feel your portfolio samples demonstrate work worthy of the price you charge. 

melaniekhenson
Community Member

1. Sure this will get you passed over for some jobs. We are ALL passed over for various reasons, and hired for others. So? Life's rough. Lying to expand your job pool is unethical.

 

2. Besides being unethical, if you're called out on it, you never know - you could get reported. What might happen then? A very angry client with a hair up may well do something like this and have the spotlight put on you. I don't know officially what could happen but I do know that certain forms of dishonesty get people tossed off Upwork permanently.

 

3. You give a lot of reasons you "should" lie. You back these up with such presumptuous justifications as (paraphrasing here) "many native English speakers don't write as well as I do," "certain nations have English as a partial native language," "I could have relocated to the country I'm currently in - so although I'd be lying, since that scenario is conceivable, it should all be okay" and so on. (Again, this was all paraphrasing, and adding what you're actually saying between the lines here.) It is not your call to decide potential clients will get better work out of you than a percentage of native English speakers. That's up to them. You don't take that choice from them by lying. 

 

4. Someone pointed out that in general you seem to write very well; very articulately. That's true. Someone else pointed out that the typos you make seem very indicative of a non-native English speaker rather than the typical typos anyone might easily make. That too is true. Yes, you'll be called out, so to speak. 

lol glad this was bumped. Wasn't this dude in the 90s on jss before he made the change to native? LOL

 

the lulz never stop in this place

mugita31
Community Member

Hi Jennifer, I'm glad you brought this up. My JSS score has nothing to do with my fluency in English. It's simply an algorithm based on one's activity on Upwork. I'm sure you know this. Secondly, I'm pretty sure it was because of inactivity during the month of October. Other than that, I've had no qualms with any of my employees who are native English Speakers. Thank you 🙂

sgoble
Community Member

A suggestion for your profile: tone down the "breeziness" from its current Beaufort 7 strength to something resembling business English with a light zephyr wafting across the words.

 

You may be losing clients who need a solid writer who can introduce a bit of levity into the text by appearing to have only one linguistic mode. I can't judge from what is there how well you can downshift into serious and back up to humour.

 

ADDING: You grew up surrounded by the words and structures and rhythm of your country's various languages. It has soaked into your mind so thoroughly you don't even notice it.  It affects the way you speak and write any other language.  I'm a native English speaker and find it easy to spot non-native speakers by the way they structure sentences, their vocabulary choices, and the strange things they do to prepositions.

 

We have many foreign students at the local university, and even those who were schooled in English in countries that were colonies of England using English coursework and texts have linguistic quirks. I know, because I read their dissertations. 

mugita31
Community Member

Hello Stephanie, thanks for the advice. :)I think you might have a solid point. Any pointers on how to make my profile a little more business oriented? I would really appreciate it. Thanks!