Scheduled rate increase

[sourceprouk]

Who had this brilliant idea?

This is the best way to put off clients: The thought that the fees will increase, with time, as they have less and less money for the project.

The fees (hourly rate) for a given project should be fixed for the duration of the project. When I increase my fees, I do it on new projects.

Now I have to keep coming back to correct my proposals, after pressing Send, because I always forget to cancel this thing and I get the 'Please fix the errors below' message.

[tlsanders]

Fortunately, I've made it through 7 years on Upwork and hundreds of thousands of dollars without feeling the need to explain any of the many other things Upwork did. However, the current system requires me to enter into a contract with terms I don't actually agree to. Qualifying that in the contracting documents is the only way to alter the false terms Upwork is forcing.

[the-right-writer]

Unfortunately, I see no alternative. Upwork is not going to listen. I didn't anticipate this one. Silly me, they will do what they want to make us employees with no benefits.

[the-right-writer]

Yes, it should be optional, but Upwork won't let that happen.

Forced mandates...yep, I missed this one.

[browersr]

I understand what UW is trying to do here but as usual, it's more about the execution than the idea. I have never cared for the way in which contract rates have been made to seem an immutable concept. A client and freelancer agree to a rate at the start and I think there is an unspoken expectation that this is the rate for the work stated. Now that can and often does make sense for short or medium-term projects, but it's the longer ones, and especially ones that turn longer, where problems arise. 

It truly is not reasonable for a client to think someone should provide a given service, for years on end, at a fixed never changing rate. When you have contracts out in the "real world" you will always see a section discussing that a given rate is good through x period of time and after is subject to change based on some defined process. But, the way it has been done here forces you to come back at a time you think appropriate to bring this up to the client. That can be a negative surprise if even not the freelancer's fault and entirely reasonable. Perhaps in budgeting, the client hadn't included that because nothing around that idea was expressed. 

So in that regard, I do think UW is long overdue in updating the process around contract creation and the idea of increasing rates after a period of time. However, back to that pesky execution. The current process is hamfisted and doesn't allow for the unpredictable dynamics that occur in business and the economy. While I may want to indicate to a client that after 1-year I will want to discuss rates, I don't necessarily want to lock myself into what that amount is going to be 12 months in advance. All I really want is for the client to be made aware that at a specified point a discussion will need to take place. How we handle that is how we handle that given our relationship, the status of the project, and overall the status of our business at that time. 

I would suggest, rather than baking in this "Never" or "immutable amount" at a time to be specified before I am even hired, simply presenting the client with a checkbox that acknowledges that rates are subject to change upon the agreement of both parties.  The exact wording can be debated, but the idea here is to make it clear to clients that rates agreed to at the project's start aren't set for life. At the same time, they cannot just be changed by the freelancer. So expect that a conversation can take place. From there if the client wants to inquire about the potential for rate changes, they can certainly do so. This makes it front and center and later no client can legitimately claim to be caught off guard by the discussion. If the freelancer is smart, they are having this discussion with their client well ahead of any actual change so that clients are given fair time to budget properly or make other decisions about who is working on their project.

I realize that a checkbox with some verbiage isn't particularly sexy, but it achieves the goal of alerting clients that rates are subject to change without forcing it to be baked in possibly a year ahead of time let alone before we even get to proper introductions.

[sourceprouk]

NO service provider, Mobile phones, Broadband, electricity, gas, solicitors, car garage, etc. tells you that you should sign a contract saying that you accept that you will expect price increases (especially when you do not know what they will be). It would not be very clever if they are trying to get you to sign on the dotted line, would it?

[browersr]

Acknowledging that price is not an immutable concept is not a bad thing. When you sign agreements with service providers there are always checkboxes to include those that suggest terms and conditions are subject to change. No difference here. This isn't to say "expect a price increase" but it is to say that it can be discussed and at any rate must be agreed to. If you have worked for a client for many years, is it right to expect that your rate does not change? Given it's the same contract, if it lasted for a decade, should you be held to the same rate the entire time? Of course not and it's not reasonable a client should think that's what would happen. If I am signing a contract with a consulting company offering service for an extended period, I absolutely expect a clause in that contract to indicate that prices are subject to change after a specified period (usually 1 year). So nothing here guarantees a rate increase but it does call out that it's possible to have this conversation and this goes for every single freelancer on this site, so no one is at a disadvantage versus another. 

[the-right-writer]

It is a disadvantage to every real freelancer. Clients do not like this and more will leave.

[browersr]

What is, acknowledging that prices are subject to change upon agreement in the future? 

[the-right-writer]

Yes. Freelancers MUST choose to include raises or not include raises - and the clients don't like it at all. When you haven't even begun to work with a freelancer, and you have to put in something for the future?

Of course, the clients hate it. This is not freelancing.

[browersr]

You never read what I proposed. I did NOT endorse choosing a rate increase or not at the beginning. I indicated an alternate path where, when the contract is being "signed" (i.e the client is accepting) there is a checkbox acknowledging that rates are subject to change with consent (again wording can be debated). You keep saying "that is not freelancing". Freelancing is a business like any other. One cannot stay in business with the idea that rates are fixed for life.  Once again, I am not endorsing what Upwork has put into place but rather proposing something else to address the current issue of rates appearing immutable. 

[the-right-writer]

When a platform mandates inserting raises before work has begun, it is no longer freelancing. Your alternate still mandates a raise decision.

It's also poor business. Demanding the client agree to a crystal ball decision is not going to win any favors.

[sourceprouk]

And I say that there should not even be a mention of rate increases.
You accept a contract. Months later you see inflation rising (the client will see it too). You tell your client you need to increase your fees after he has seen a lot of your good work. The client says yes, fine. The client says no, fine too, he misses your work. You go to look for other clients.
End of story.

[sourceprouk]

No, it says how much extra you will be extracting from them. I wonder how many buyers are actually awarding the jobs when freelancers use this thing and the percentages they will increase.
I guess that is less competition for the rest of us.

[sourceprouk]

"terms and conditions are subject to change. No difference here."
Hardly an explicit announcement (with figures) that their costs will increase while IN the contract they are asking you to sign

[tlsanders]

I don't know where you live, but EVERY cable, internet, etc contract I've ever entered into includes a price for the first 12 or 24 months and then a higher price when that period ends. 

I'm totally against this feature on Upwork, just pointing out that what you describe is not actually uncommon.

[researchediting]

Yes, and...

Fixed, stepped increases:

• are not the norm in contracting
• are not the norm in private employment.

In both cases, raises or rate adjustments are always based on analysis of performance, and other conditions.

The only place I am aware of where fixed, stepped increases might still be in effect would be in some legacy public employment systems.

Fixed, stepped, increases have no place in this marketplace. 

[tlsanders]

I agree completely. 

But, I was responding to this inaccurate statement of fact: 

"NO service provider, Mobile phones, Broadband, electricity, gas, solicitors, car garage, etc. tells you that you should sign a contract saying that you accept that you will expect price increases"

[sourceprouk]

The inccurate statements are yours. I have seldom seen an announcement of specific price increases and, as I said, I have only seen it once or twice saying it can happen after the contract you sign ends, 
Not even landlords announce rent increases (especially in a scheduled manner) despite the fact that they do increase the rent. The reason for that is that they do not know when it will be necessary. For instance, recently in the UK they increased the rents because the interest rates started going up unexpectedly. Could a landlord predict when and by how much this will happen, even within a year? No.
The same applies to freelancers. The fallacy of this device is that freelancers are expected to guess when and by how much they will need to increase their fees.
Disclaimer: The value of your investments as well as inflation, can go up as well as down 😃

You do not know what you are talking about.

[researchediting]

Can we rein it in a bit?
We are each speaking from our social, legal, and commercial perspectives. It is a fact that cable services in the US constantly push "introductory" rates— whether in large print or small, yes, they do explicitly say that the rate will go up after a certain period. I don't believe anyone has claimed that such contracts always specify the amount of the increase, although they often do.

When it comes to rent, rises in rent are such a universally understood part of the landscape that many US cities, and I believe some states, have implemented rent control, limiting the amount that rent can be raised in any one year, and sometimes specifying on what basis they may be raised.

[sourceprouk]

It may be different in your country but, in the UK, 'introductory rates' are for the duration of the contract and they NEVER tell you by how much they will/might/could increase the rates for the simple reason they do not know.
As for frozen rents, that is another reason why it would be absurd to 'announce' rent increases.

[tlsanders]

And that's fine. Different places and different industries have different practices. 

The difference is that you said it never happened and I said that was false, because I know that in the US it often happens. I was correct in pointing out that your statement that it never happened was false.

Then, for some reason, you decided that your experience must be universal, and my assertion that it sometimes happens must be false because you had never personally experienced it. That's just badly broken reasoning.

[sourceprouk]

Yep, when the contract period ends 🙄

[the-right-writer]

Freelancing is not about changing your rates. This is an asinine idea, apparently designed to make us little Upwork employees - except we will never have benefits. Nowhere in the freelancing world are built in raises. It doesn't make any sense - if you are looking at freelancing. Whatever Upwork is doing, it's obvious they don't want freelancers.

[browersr]

It says you are responding to me, but it's not clear as nowhere did I suggest that the freelancer should have a built-in raise. 

[AveryO · Accepted solution]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this new feature and participating in this thread. I understand why this may be unpleasant to some of you, and we collated your feedback and sentiments and shared this with the team.

I want to clarify that this doesn't go against Upwork's Terms of Service, as some have pointed out on this thread. Upwork is not a party to your contract, and electing to include a scheduled rate increase is optional and your decision to make. Like other contract terms on your proposal, such as your hourly rate, you decide which terms you want to include. We've added this feature to allow clients and freelancers to propose a rate increase as part of your contract terms.

The scheduled rate increase feature is optional. You decide whether to include a rate increase in your proposal or accept an offer with a scheduled rate increase. On the client's end, they can change this selection when they send an offer. This feature can help clients keep quality freelancers like you interested in working with them and lets them know upfront what rate you'll need in the future. The client can decline the scheduled rate increase in your proposal or offer a different amount or schedule before the contract starts.

As for those asking if the client sees when you selected "Never," I can confirm that they see you chose not to include a rate increase for the contract. But this shouldn't deter talent like you from negotiating a rate increase in the future. You and the client can also agree to a different rate schedule in the future and close the existing contract to enter into a new contract with your updated terms and rate.

If you have other feedback that hasn't been mentioned, please don't hesitate to post it on this thread. Clients may post their feedback on this thread here. Thank you!

[tlsanders]

electing to include a scheduled rate increase is optional and your decision to make

Upwork keeps repeating this, but it's totally false. You have cut off the natural option that would exist in any other freelancing contract, which would be to start with a rate and then negotiate an increase as warranted at whatever point the parties felt appropriate. When you MUST either choose a specific amount and date or choose "never," this is not optional--you are forcing a choice before the client and freelancer have even talked that would normally be made after three months or six or a year.

[the-right-writer]

I enjoy Upwork's interesting use of the dictionary. Words that have one meaning for the world, are somehow different here. Their use of "optional" is not accepted anywhere on the planet. Yet, here it is in a contract. I do wonder about their attorneys and their ability to understand contract language.

[tlsanders]

Worth noting that they also use it for the contract terms that become default if you don't specifically override them.

[researchediting]

A critical difference is that with the default contract, it makes sense to call it optional, because there is in fact a mechanism for overriding it.

 No matter how many times Upwork responds with "...is, too, optional, is TOOOO...", the language of this new 🤬 clearly precludes any kind of negotiation's being optional, and instead offers two unavoidable and equally unacceptable sets of contract terms. 

[tlsanders]

That's true--at least the "optional" contract terms can be optional if you know exactly what you're doing. The problem I have is that it used to be called "default contract," which made it clear that the terms would automatically apply if not replaced. Then, it was for some reason changed to the less clear and more potentially misleading "optional."

[researchediting]

Funny, I've always thought of this in the opposite direction.

• As a language professional, I agree that "optional" obscures that the contract applies by default.
• On the other hand, it was nowhere made explicit that the default terms could be overridden/superseded except in the forum, when contractors would propose that such was the case, and receive confirmation from the mods.

I suspect at some point the operational awkwardness and ultimately non-authoritative say-so of the mods came to the attention of Legal — as I recall, the change was coincident with a general revision of the TOS. That is how, I think, we ended up with a legally dictated description as "optional" —  in the way that legal language often  uses a term in some way other than how it is used in common speech.

[celgins]

The problem is the dropdown menu (How often do you want a rate increase?) should not even be available for use. Simply introducing the feature means Upwork is forcing freelancers and clients to broach the subject when it shouldn't be considered until the freelancer and client--at a moment of their choosing--decide to discuss it.

As for those asking if the client sees when you selected "Never," I can confirm that they see you chose not to include a rate increase for the contract. But this shouldn't deter talent like you from negotiating a rate increase in the future.

Okay, but I believe a client would be within their rights to refuse to negotiate a rate increase when the freelancer was forced to choose "Never" before the contract started. When a freelancer chooses, "Never," it becomes part of the agreement between freelancer and client, and the client has a right to say: "No, I'm not negotiating a rate increase because you agreed to never ask for one."

[kelly_e]

Ah, and the key to the lip service of "negotiating a rate increase in the future" is in those smarmy words, "close the existing contract to enter into a new contract"—thus putting Top Rated Plus even more out of reach for freelancers who do manage a long-term relationship.

[the-right-writer]

This is not freelancing, and part of the way they are changing the site. It's obvious they want employees with no benefits. Upwork has tried a lot of things to make money, and I guess they just can't figure it out as a freelancer platform.

The issue is extremely problematic with the actual contract, and sets up an adversarial relationship from the start. As a client said, "Wait, we are talking about a freelance job, a one-time project and we gotta discuss your raise before we have even worked? What the he**?!"

[the-right-writer]

Wow, Upwork really does want to get rid of the freelancer status. This is an asinine rule for freelancers, and it is ridiculous you ask for feedback. In all the years I have been here, when does Upwork actually listen or care, or do the right thing?  Never. Just like Upwork isn't listening or gives a hoot now.

There is no way this forced policy is for the benefit of freelancers. I've already had clients tell me they were not working this way, and they are gone.

You can call it what you want, but since Upwork is FORCING us to do this, it sure as heck ain't optional or our choice. That's another reason why it's against the Terms. This is not a safety rule nor a choice. Upwork is getting pretty confident they can do anything to the freelancers.

Freelancing does not involve raises. Why don't you just tell everyone that Upwork is getting rid of freelancing as it has been known here? It doesn't take a marketing or business genius to see the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train destined to wipe out freelancers and create a new "freelancing" site.

It's bad enough Upwork won't address the egregious issues we have begged to have fixed, that could be easily, and cheaply. Now, you FORCE us to play money games with clients. And it's OK to mess with our income? Yes, Upwork believes we will tolerate absolutely anything.

[tlsanders]

For about two years, it seemed I was the only person who suspected this change was on the horizon. Now, it seems it's just you and I and I feel like they're already 60% down the road. I think a lot of people who are breaking their backs trying to bend Upwork to their will right now are going to regret the wasted time when they abruptly find out that there will never be work for them here again.

[joansands]

Why does Upwork keep coming up with really stupid ideas?

[m_terrazas]

I'm late (I found out about this today) and I reiterate what has already been said and it seems that Upwork doesn't understand.

This would be "optional" only if I had the "option" not to choose anything.

You say: "...when you selected "Never," I can confirm that they see you chose not to include a rate increase for the contract. But this shouldn't deter talent like you from negotiating a rate increase in the future. You and the client can also agree to a different rate schedule in the future and close the existing contract to enter into a new contract with your updated terms and rate."
I don't know if you realize that this is nonsense as well as harmful:
The client has to open another contract (hassles and expenses, since you charge for it) and the freelancer is left without the option of reaching TRP (only one long contract, not several from the same client)

The rest of the disadvantages and inconveniences have already been commented excellently by others, I second everything.

[nscarpa]

If the Scheduled Rate Increase is optional, why is it a required field?
This can be a negative result if the client either does not want to be locked into the increase or freelancers have to choose Never so as not to lose a potential client.

This field should be available to those who want to use, but set as optional not required for those who do not.

Thanks!

Nick S.

[joansands]

Did someone stay up nights to think up this really stupid addition to the proposal page?