Scheduled rate increase

[sourceprouk]

Who had this brilliant idea?

This is the best way to put off clients: The thought that the fees will increase, with time, as they have less and less money for the project.

The fees (hourly rate) for a given project should be fixed for the duration of the project. When I increase my fees, I do it on new projects.

Now I have to keep coming back to correct my proposals, after pressing Send, because I always forget to cancel this thing and I get the 'Please fix the errors below' message.

[kelly_e]

I can't believe it's been added to the proposals page with no opt-out, and NO changing it later.

So either I scare clients away, OR I appear to be an underconfident sap who doesn't like occasional increases—no option to say "client & I will decide this later (if we ever get that far)."

Isn't it hard enough to get a new UW client in 2023? WHY does UW think that scaring potential employers more is a good idea for a job-matching website?

[sourceprouk]

I know, it is incomprehensible. To be honest, with long term clients, if I increase my fees on future projects and they come back to me telling me that I made a commitment not to increase my fees, they can take it or leave it.

You can only increase your fees with people who already know the quality of your work. With new clients, already saying that you will start increasing your fees, from what you quoted, and before they see an hour of your work, it is just scaring them.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Federico D wrote:

With new clients, already saying that you will start increasing your fees, from what you quoted, and before they see an hour of your work, it is just scaring them way.

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They aren't even a new client yet! We're supposed to tell someone who hasn't hired us that we'll expect an X% raise every three months (or whatever). Can you imagine anything more obnoxious? Did Upwork actually spend five seconds thinking about this before foisting it upon us?

[sourceprouk]

Quite

[feed_my_eyes]

OMG I was just coming to the forum to complain about this insane new feature. I'm attaching a screen capture for those of you who haven't yet had the pleasure of forcing a prospective client to agree (or not agree) to increase your rate BEFORE THEY'VE EVEN HIRED YOU. I heard about this feature the other day but assumed that it would be optional. But no - now you either have to tell the client (and again, I emphasise that this is a prospective client) to give you raise - when and by what percentage - or agree that you're "never" going to ask for a rate increase?

Upwork, I'm sick and tired of you trying to "help" me run my business. I know that most of the new freelancers who are joining now can barely spell their own names, but maybe give us veterans an opt-out from all of this ludicrous hand-holding? I'm quite capable of deciding when to raise my rates and by how much, and I'd prefer to inform clients myself instead of making them agree to a scheduled increase. 

I was invited to a project just now, and when forced to choose a rate increase option, I selected "Never", just because I don't want anything to do with this hideously embarrassing "feature". So what does this mean, now? If this client hires me, are they  actually going to receive my response and think that I'm NEVER going to raise my rates? Seriously?????

Please get rid of this idiotic "feature," or at the VERY least, make it optional. I get few enough invitations without you sticking your orr in to scare off prospective clients.

[kelly_e]

It's like saying, "Hi-let's-get-married-4-eva-and-here's-a-prenup-with-all-the-things-that-might-happen-in-months-or-years"...

... before letting the other person even say "Hi" back.

O.O

Makes you wonder whether *anyone* in the upper offices at Upwork has ever WORKED AS A FREELANCER.

This ain't how to do it.

[tlsanders]

I see this as further support of the idea that Upwork is moving away from freelancing and focusing on misclassified employees (or perhaps eventually actual employees).

[celgins]

This is crazy.

Upwork has always noted how "hands off" it is with regards to the contractual relationships between freelancers and clients. Upwork has always said that freelancers and clients negotiate and agree upon the scope and the price of freelancer services, and Upwork is not a part of those agreements.

Apparently, Upwork is now a part of those agreements if it forces freelancers to determine how and when freelancers should increase their rates.

Terrible feature, Upwork.

[kfarnell]

Precisely.  So we're no longer allowed to 'agree to different or additional terms' as it says in the ToS? 

[celgins]

I guess not!

I'm wondering how much time was spent by the product managers or decision-makers weighing the pros and cons of a feature like this. My guess is, less than a week.

[kfarnell]

My guess is that however long they took, the drinks were plentiful and tasted nice.

Now my flabber's finished being gasted, I'd like an official response regarding the contradiction with the terms of service. (Yes, I know... but one can but try...)

So we're now obliged to agree to to one of these terms and flexibility is out of the window? And presumably the terms of service is being rewritten to say that we can agree to what contract terms we want EXCEPT in regard to raising our hourly rates?

[feed_my_eyes]

Oh, look - it's already scared off one client: Upwork is now requiring freelancer proposals ... - Upwork Community

[celgins]

Yep -- I'm expecting most clients to react this way.

[sourceprouk]

Not surprisingly

[tlsanders]

It seems like perhaps you are stuck in the format of your own field and not considering that not everyone works on "projects." There are people here who do VA work or customer service work and such on an hourly basis indefinitely. Many clients in these scenarios offer a trial rate. What's wrong with setting up a contract so that there's a month-long or 90-day period of one rate and then an automatic increase if the relationship continues? A great many brick and mortar jobs work that way. 

[kelly_e]

What's wrong (with this new "feature") is that it's being introduced at the wrong point in the process—before the two parties have even said Hello; and that it's not something that can be skipped—or even changed later if you and the client agree that you're better than expected or whatever.

*If* such a concept has a use, that use is at the time of implementing a contract, when the employer and client have decided to give each other a whirl... or even at the first increment (e.g. 90d), when the employer and client know they're a good fit.

[tlsanders]

Sure. Totally agree. That has nothing to do with my response to Federico.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Tiffany S wrote:

It seems like perhaps you are stuck in the format of your own field and not considering that not everyone works on "projects." There are people here who do VA work or customer service work and such on an hourly basis indefinitely. Many clients in these scenarios offer a trial rate. What's wrong with setting up a contract so that there's a month-long or 90-day period of one rate and then an automatic increase if the relationship continues? A great many brick and mortar jobs work that way. 

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The problem is that we're not all VAs or CS reps, and it's not optional - we're being forced to tell clients that we want an increase after 3, 6, 12 months or never, and that "this term can't be changed once [we] accept an offer." 

If someone is working on a long-term contract, as an adult running a business, why can't they inform their clients of increases as and when appropriate? Why tell a client  - who hasn't even hired you yet - that you expect them to agree to set increases at pre-determined intervals? Surely that's a conversation to have after you've been working for a client for awhile, not before? It makes no sense at all.

[sourceprouk]

Exactly

[tlsanders]

Christine, I agree. I think it's a terrible "feature."  I was responding only to Federico's blanket declaration that rates should always remain fixed throughout the duration of a "project."

[sourceprouk]

Yep. They can do that if they want. Just don't force it upon the rest of us. Right?

[tlsanders]

Of course.

I was only responding to your statement that rates should always remain fixed for the duration of a contract.

[ArjayM]

Hi Federico and Valued Members,

We genuinely appreciate you sharing your insights and feedback with this newly released feature. Please be aware that scheduling a rate increase is optional for clients and freelancers. If a client responds to a proposal with an offer, they have the option to accept the freelancer's proposed scheduled rate increase, decline it and include no rate increase, or set a different amount and frequency in their offer.  If clients want to negotiate new rates in the future, they’ll need to start a new contract.

We will continue sharing your feedback with the rest of the team for further review. Additionally, I assure you that we'll continue updating the Community about the team's initiatives regarding this feature based on your feedback/suggestions.

[kelly_e]

It is NOT optional. I HAVE TO make a choice of what to tell a client about months or a year from today, right now, before we've even said Hello. And the choice is binding and unalterable. That's not what "optional" features look like.

[celgins]

Arjay,

I know you're likely a messenger and may not be privy to the decision-making behind this new feature.

The problem I have with this is, Upwork is forcing freelancers to engage in dialogue they might otherwise avoid until a contract has started and a relationship between freelancer/client has been fully established.

Here is the position many freelancers are in with this new feature:

1) "Before you offer me a contract, I want a rate increase every (3 months, 6 months, 12 months)."

--OR--

2) "Before you offer me a contract, please note that I will never want a rate increase."

In either case, Upwork is initiating a discussion about contractual terms that only freelancers and clients should intiate.

If the client does not approve the freelancer's rate increase, the waters have already been poisoned because the client now knows that you requested an increase before being hired, and the freelancer is aware that the client declined the potential rate increase.

These are not things freelancers typically want to discuss with clients before a contract starts.

[kelly_e]

Worse—"Before you've decided whether or not to get in touch with me, here's one more reason not to" / "here's one more way I'm willing to be the lowest bidder."

If it were after a discussion is going on, at the point of offering a contract, that would be one thing. It would still be a bad thing, but it wouldn't be one more way to devalue yourself (or one more way never to get any new contacts, especially when clickthrough/view rates are already at their lowest ever), before having a chance to start a conversation.

[ArjayM]

We certainly understand your concerns about this feature. Your feedback really means a lot to us so that we can improve our services. I assure you that this has been shared with the relevant teams for further review. Your utmost understanding would be greatly appreciated.

[joechiu]

What nonsense is this automatic rate increase thing, which is billed as being optional, but you have to choose a rate increase period...  "Never" implies no rate increase -- but that's different from unspecified/indefinite. 

[kelly_e]

Not only do you have to choose, but you can NEVER CHANGE IT once you've made the choice. And you and the potential employer *haven't even made contact yet,* at the time when you're telling them how much extra they'll have to ante up months from now.

Unbelieveable. If there's a way to drop 2023 view rates and new hire rates further, Upwork WILL find it.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Arjay M wrote:

Hi Federico and Valued Members,

We genuinely appreciate you sharing your insights and feedback with this newly released feature. Please be aware that scheduling a rate increase is optional for clients and freelancers. 

---

No, it's not optional. I just submitted a bid and was forced to select 3, 6, 12 months or never, or my proposal wouldn't submit. That's the opposite of "optional". There needs to be an "ignore and don't show any hint of this nonsense fo the client" option.

[sourceprouk]

Oh good. It is optional. Now just tell me what I click to remove this thing from my proposal.

[sourceprouk]

First, it is necessary to 'hook' the client with good work and a good relationship. After that, you can start asking for your 'perks'.
When potential clients ask me how much a whole project will cost, I think: "oh dear, here we go". So I give them a realistic cost, say $5000.00. Then I never hear from them again, When they agree that I work on an hourly rate, if the amount of fees has already reached $5000.00 before the project is even finished, they do not complain at all. Why? Read my first sentence.

[sourceprouk]

Another question: Was Upwork bombarded with requests, by Freelancers, to introduce this Scheduled Rate Increase?
I think I know what the answer is.

[the-right-writer]

Yes, we all pleaded with them to ignore our begging for action on Upwork issues, and address this pressing issue of raises for Upwork. If that isn't designed to get rid of freelancing, they are sure doing a great job, accidentally.

[motoyen]

I think Upwork has given up on trying to get quality job postings and instead is focussing on trying to extract as much money out of freelancers as possible. This is typical tech company behaviour. They create "features" that sound good to newbies but in reality don't actually do anything. 

Since Upwork doesn't know how to attract better quality jobs postings, all they can do now is to go after their captive audience which is freelancers. Expect to see more "features" and greater fees in the future. 

[tlsanders]

How do you feel Upwork is "extracting more money from freelancers" with this system? 

[spectralua]

I'm not going to talk to the client before the contract about raising the rate.

I'm not going to guarantee "I'll never raise the rate in my life." I will raise or lower when necessary, that's my business!

Which option should I choose? There is no correct option.

[tlsanders]

What I'm going to do if I send a proposal on an hourly job is pick never but include in my proposal that I am choosing never to restore our ability to make decisions over time like a normal client-freelancer relationship.

[spectralua]

If you have to explain separately every stupid thing added by Upwork then your proposal will grow to indecent proportions and will be bad for quick comprehension. This is a waste of your time and the client's efforts. And later you will have to attach a doc file with this redundant information.

I would prefer that this option be optional (some checkbox disabled by default or configurable) rather than mandatory.