** clients and Upwork participating in theft

[emilie_martinson]

I don't know what's going on with UW, but between failing QC and decreased top talent support, things are amiss--to put it lightly.

If you're a freelancer who delivered within scope and on time--and there is NO proof that you failed to meet the clients' needs as they were outlined in your offer/contract--and did not receive payment, let me know here. I'm starting a movement to call out Upwork for participating in theft. 

My case: A **Edited for Community Guidelines** client refused to pay for the project we agreed to. I sent a full account of what occurred from start to finish proving that the client was pleased with the project and did not communicate his displeasure at any point during the working process. 

Upwork is siding with him and choosing to not pay me what is due. If this has happened to you and you can coherently prove that you were taken advantage of, comment on this post. I've had enough of large companies taking advantage of people. Enough. 

In case Upwork deletes this, I'll take it to social media too. 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[martina_plaschka]

The thing is, upwork does not pay or not pay you. The client does, or not. You have a contract with a client, not with upwork. Upwork provides a platform for clients and freelancers to connect, and payment management. They don't guarantee payment if the client's credit card can't be charged or was stolen. 

Upwork will not delete this. Why should they? They are not to blame. 

What money has upwork stolen when the client didn't pay? How did they benefit from this situation? They don't even get their fee. 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[emilie_martinson]

**Edited for Community Guidelines** When things go into dispute and you, as a freelancer, prove that the project was delivered, you are due your fees. As the intermediary, UW also has ethics to adhere to. 

[emilie_martinson]

And who are you to say they are not to blame when you don't know the full details of the project? Do you have information I don't? 

[feed_my_eyes]

So what are the details? Was this a fixed price project in which you paid for mediation and lost, or was it an hourly project where you entered your time manually?

[emilie_martinson]

Thank you for asking, Christine. It was a fixed price project. The terms included a full document rewrite. I delivered as the client and I discussed, he communicated positive feedback throughout the project lifecycle, until the very last day when he abruptly stated that the quality is not what he wanted and he canceled the contract. Again, prior to this, I was told things were going well and he liked the changes. There was absolutely no indication that changes needed to be made. 

We went to mediation where I shared, line by line (e.g. dates, direct quotes), that I had delivered based on the information the client provided and the scope of the project.

Neither UW nor the client could demonstrate my failure to deliver, yet UW *still* sided with the client and offered to refund him the full amount.

[petra_r]

---

Emilie M wrote:

Neither UW nor the client could demonstrate my failure to deliver, yet UW *still* sided with the client and offered to refund him the full amount.

---

Upwork didn't "side" with the client. Are you sure they're giving the client "your" money (the money in escrow) or are they paying the client to make the dispute go away without having to go to arbitration, while also paying you the sum that is in escrow? In other words, you get paid either way?

Or were you offered arbitration?

[emilie_martinson]

I did not get paid for this project. They are refunding the client the funds in escrow. 

[petra_r]

---

Emilie M wrote:

I did not get paid for this project. They are refunding the client the funds in escrow. 

---

Were you offered and declined arbitration?

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Emilie M wrote:

I did not get paid for this project. They are refunding the client the funds in escrow. 

---

Did you refuse arbitration? And how much did the client owe you?

[jr-translation]

Did you request the payment to be released using the funciton on Upwork?

[claudiacezy]

---

Emilie M wrote:

We went to mediation where I shared, line by line (e.g. dates, direct quotes), that I had delivered based on the information the client provided and the scope of the project.

Neither UW nor the client could demonstrate my failure to deliver, yet UW *still* sided with the client and offered to refund him the full amount.

---

"The Escrow Disputes Team does not evaluate the quality or functionality of work and cannot render binding judgment or determination as to the parties’ respective rights to the disputed funds."

https://www.upwork.com/legal#fp

Did you use the "Submit Work" button and attached the final work? Or did you send the work only via messages? 

[emilie_martinson]

I used the Submit Work button. 

[lucioric]

Hi, that is one of the reason that I don't like fixed price for long projects (I prefer hourly). Until the end, you are subject to the approval of the client, and some clients keep changing requirements. If the client is dissatisfied, he can request refund of only the last week. Or if he decides that he does not want to work with you you only lost a week.

[martina_plaschka]

I am a freelancer like yourself, and my posts are my opinion only. I neither provide legal advice, nor claim to be a lawyer. My opinion is based on having a pretty solid knowledge how the platform works, anecdotal evidence of other forum posters and how much coffee I had at a particular time.

[petra_r]

---

Emilie M wrote: When things go into dispute and you, as a freelancer, prove that the project was delivered, you are due your fees. As the intermediary, UW also has ethics to adhere to. 

---

You appear confused about what a dispute entails:

• Dispute on an hourly contract: Is decided, as per the terms of service, on your work diary
• Dispute on a fixed-rate contract: Upwork doesn't make a decision, they mediate (except in rare cases of fraud, etc). If mediation fails, you are free to proceed with arbitration for a decision (at a cost).

---

Emilie M wrote:

Do you have information I don't? . 

---

An understanding of the dispute process?

The details of the project are irrelevant.

[emilie_martinson]

By all means, please tell me how they mediated any part of this when my account was not considered in their decision.

[petra_r]

Could you answer the following questions, please?

1) Are you being paid?

2) Are you being offered arbitration?

This would be the first time in 11 years that we would hear of a fixed rate dispute situation where Upwork "decides" to give the client "all their money back" without also paying the freelancer OR offering arbitration.

[versailles]

This may or may not help:
Fixed Price Service Contract Escrow Instructions 

[emilie_martinson]

"Upwork provides the dispute assistance program administered by Upwork and described in this Section 6 (the “Dispute Assistance Program”) as a mechanism to resolve the dispute."

This mechanism failed here. Thank you for sharing all the same. 

[versailles]

It would be interesting to know step-by-tep the process you followed and what happened. Did you request the release of the funds? What steps were offered to you? What did you answer and such. It would help to assess the situation. 

[AndreaG · Accepted solution]

Hi all,

A few posts and replies to them have been edited/removed from this thread as they were in violation of our Community Guidelines and values. Please, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and respectful toward other users when posting.

Emilie,

I'm sorry to hear you're going through a dispute, I understand how this is a frustrating situation for you. I checked and would like to clarify that what a mediator proposes in a dispute is a non-binding recommendation. I can see you're communicating with the team via your support ticket, please continue to do so as they are the ones who can best assist you.

[tlbp]

The process for resolving issues that cannot be handled amicably is to request arbitration. 

This is similar to filing a civil suit but usually costs less and requires all involved parties to agree to be bound by the arbiters decision. 

[pgiambalvo]

And what happens if the client declines to participate in arbitration? Does Upwork charge their credit card and then play the freelancer? Time tracker cases aside, of course.

[petra_r]

---

Peter G wrote:

And what happens if the client declines to participate in arbitration? Does Upwork charge their credit card and then play the freelancer? Time tracker cases aside, of course.

---

What do you mean?

If the client fails to pay for arbitration after the freelancer paid, the freelancer gets both the escrow funds and their arbitration fee back,

What does it have to do with the time tracker? There is no tracked time in fixed rate contracts and no arbitration for hourly contracts.

[emilie_martinson]

Thank you for the thoughtful response, Tonya. It's not clear to me who incurs the cost of arbitration. Would you be able to shed any light on this? For the record, I was offered no option for payment and I opted for arbitration. 

[emilie_martinson]

UPDATE: After nine days in dispute, the situation was finally resolved. And after multiple rounds of negotiation, Upwork finally agreed to credit me the FULL amount due, which is not what was originally offered (and, of couse, return client's funds in escrow). Client was notified that since the contract was not fulfilled on his part, all remitted documents fall under my IP. To safeguard my IP, materials I created will be used for marketing purposes (devoid of any and all identifying info). 

Lesson here: It's OK to stand up for yourself and fight for your rights as a business owner. Upwork came through and I'm pleased with the result.  

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Emilie M wrote:

UPDATE: After nine days in dispute, the situation was finally resolved. And after multiple rounds of negotiation, Upwork finally agreed to credit me the FULL amount due, which is not what was originally offered (and, of couse, return client's funds in escrow). Client was notified that since the contract was not fulfilled on his part, all remitted documents fall under my IP. To safeguard my IP, materials I created will be used for marketing purposes (devoid of any and all identifying info). 

Lesson here: It's OK to stand up for yourself and fight for your rights as a business owner. Upwork came through and I'm pleased with the result.  

---

Do I understand correctly that you were paid in full, the client's escrowed funds were returned in full, and you retain ownership of the work product? 

[emilie_martinson]

Phyllis, 

As far as I understand it, yes. The original dispute offer was to simply return the full amount in escrow to to the client. The second option (after days of back-and-forth) was to return the funds to the client and award me less than the original amount. After sending proof of delivery, in alignment with client requirements, I requested funds equal to what the client had agreed to pay initially. Upwork acquiesced and, as far as I can tell, will move forward with this option. 

[aitringo]

It doesn't make sense.

You say that upwork has taken the client's side, refunding him in full.
Now you say that you have been refunded in part.

Could you please clarify what exactly happened?

I believe that the purpose of the community is that: every reader who explores the posts should be able to bring clarity to their own situation. (if similar)
At the moment, this post is confusing us all.

[tagrendy]

Hi Emilie, it should be - that if you have a contract and you do your part, then the other party needs to be forced to do their part too and pay up. Upwork doesn't do a good job of communicating to freelancers that it will not be the 'enforcement' party to this. If you read the 10 pages of ToS filled with legal lingo, sure, you would know that you're on your own for fixed projects. But if you read articles written in more human language - the phrase 'Escrow protection' is used so much & emphasized that it leads freelancers to assume that once funds are in Escrow account, Upwork will get you paid if you do the job. There are many freelancers like you - including myself - that found out about this loophole the bad way - by being screwed by a client who wanted just free work. 

I am completely sympathetic to your anger. That said, Upwork is not purposefully screwing you over. If you don't get paid, they don't get paid either. The reason why they can't enforce payment is in the Escrow system itself. It's illegal - not allowed for Upwork to make that decision. They have to use 'arbitration' for disputes, and the 'arbitrar' requires a fee that is split 3 ways. So, in this case, regardless of who Upwork sides with, you can always request arbitration if you strongly believe you will win, or you believe the client won't go ahead with it. It's definitely not a great solution, but it works a lot of the times. I personally just avoid fixed projects altogether, unless the client is super-well-established.

[emilie_martinson]

Thank you, Tatevik, for this awesome response! I'll 100% keep it in mind should I remain on Upwork. 

[maninejad]

As a first time Upwork user I had the same issue. The client agreed to a brief ( approved messges) and he stopped messing me. Whos gonna pay for my hours of work? 
There was no contract signed. But is that why i come to Upwork anyway / to mange this? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "As a first time Upwork user I had the same issue. The client agreed to a brief ( approved messges) and he stopped messing me. Whos gonna pay for my hours of work? There was no contract signed. But is that why i come to Upwork anyway / to mange this?"

You were never hired.

There was no contract.

Nobody is going to pay you anything.

[aitringo]

Rule number 1: Do never work before signing a contract!

[lucioric]

Couldn't you enter arbitration?

[emilie_martinson]

I did opt for arbitration. It was at that point UW acquiesced and offered me credit equal to the amount the client refused to pay (as I've written, this was not the original offer).  

[gina-herrera]

Absolutely wild how literally 5 people have asked you the same question about arbitration and you still havent answered it. I don't know how you expect anyone to help you when you can't answer very simple questions.

[emilie_martinson]

I literally posted that it was resolved. I don't know what more I need to share. It's all good, wow. 

[feed_my_eyes]

Yes, but you never did answer the question. It's great that it's resolved for you, but I'm sure that a lot of people have been reading along about you saying that Upwork sided with the client and stole your money and you had to fight for your rights, and they're now confused about what happened. For their sake, the usual process is that a mediator makes suggestions to resolve the matter, they don't (and can't) side with one party or the other, which you claimed they did. If neither side backs down, the next step is arbitration. So it sounds like in your case, the client did back down because they were faced with having to pay $291 to fight the case further - it wasn't a matter of Upwork suddenly deciding in your favour (which again, is not part of the dispute mediation process). (Edited - I see you have now confirmed that this is what happened, so thanks for clarifying.)