Is this company legit?

[0dfb110e]

Hello. I am brand new to Upwork and was just interviewed for a project via Skype text. I haven't spoken to a live person or received a scope of work. I'm being asked to sign a contract. The company joined Upwork a month ago. Everything is moving very fast, from the interview to the request to sign a contract. 

Does Upwork verify companies who join? Is it OK to end a project early if the work is problematic for some reason? I am being asked to sign a contract before I see a scope of work. 

Thanks,

Angela

[prestonhunter]

re: "Is this company legit?"

It doesn't matter.

Upwork prohibits freelancers from communicating outside of the Upwork Messages tool before having an official contract in place.

This rule is in force whether or not you are dealing with a scammer or a legitimate company.

But as a practical matter:
You can be 99% certain that you are dealing with a scammer who simply wants to steal money from your bank account.

re: "Does Upwork verify companies who join?"

No.

re: "Is it OK to end a project early if the work is problematic for some reason?"

A freelancer can end a contract or leave a project AT ANY TIME. For any reason.

But I doubt this applies to you because you probably don't even have a contract in place.

re: "I am being asked to sign a contract before I see a scope of work."

I have completed hundreds of jobs on Upwork.

I can't recall every being asked to "sign a contract".

(Aside from NDAs.)

I DO NOT KNOW if the people you are dealing with are legitimate or not.

But you really need to understand Upwork more before you sign on to work with a client who is doing such unusual things. You should definitely talk to us here in the Forum before agreeing to do anything for these people, and before you click the "Accept" button to initiate an official Upwork contract.

[0dfb110e]

Thank you, but I'm confused by your answer. You say "Upwork prohibits freelancers from communicating outside of the Upwork Messages tool before having an official contract in place." But you aslo say "I can't recall every being asked to "sign a contract".  Can you clarify for me? Is there an Upwork contract?

I have told the person that it is against the Terms to communicate off Upwork. They were contacting me via Skype. They provided me a contract with their business logo. It is an independent contractor agreement. The company does appear online. I am brand new to Upwork and trying to learn the process. 

What do you suggest at this point? They said that "it is fine" to communicate via Upwork. However, I haven't found clear information about next steps after this first contact or contract info.

THank you.

[gilbert-phyllis]

Angela, please--please, please, for your own sake--familiarize yourself with Upwork's Terms of Service (which you've already agreed to comply with) before going any further. There's lots of info in the Help & Support pages and in previous thread in this forum that you will find helpful.

Preston was referring to an UW contract which is the only one that counts here. A client that wants to engage your services as a FL will send you an offer here on the platform. If it conforms to your understanding of the scope, schedule, fee, etc. then you accept it and it appears in your My Jobs tab. 

I can pretty much assure you that no legitimate client is going to pursue you or any other FL who is new to the platform and therefore, unproven. You have to go after the work, in the beginning. 

Do the homework but also don't hesitate to come to the forum with questions. Everybody here started from scratch. Good luck!

[0dfb110e]

Phyllis, I did review the Terms, but it's extremely dense and not very clear. I also couldn't find a document that had a simple layout of the process in step 1, step 2, etc. Either the info was too brief or extremely dense (like the Terms). You have to really dig around to figure out the process.

I did dig deeper and determined that it was indeed a scam. The "company's" website looked legit until you looked at the details. 

I'm discouraged to read that no legitimate client is going to work with a newbie. I submitted 6 profiles so far. I think the scammers targeted me precisely because I'm new....

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Angela B wrote:

Phyllis, I did review the Terms, but it's extremely dense and not very clear. I also couldn't find a document that had a simple layout of the process in step 1, step 2, etc. Either the info was too brief or extremely dense (like the Terms). You have to really dig around to figure out the process.

I did dig deeper and determined that it was indeed a scam. The "company's" website looked legit until you looked at the details. 

I'm discouraged to read that no legitimate client is going to work with a newbie. I submitted 6 profiles so far. I think the scammers targeted me precisely because I'm new....

---

I did not say no legitimate client will work with a newbie. I said they won't pursue you -- they won't invite you to bid on their projects. You need to search the posted jobs regularly, even daily, and go after projects that are good opportunities for you: excellent fit with your skills & capabilities, that you are confident of delivering over and above expectations.  Six proposals is a drop in the ocean. It took me more than two dozen to land my first project here, that many more to land my second, and the better part of a year to feel like I was getting a bit of traction.

I agree the ToS and help materials are not particularly well presented but it's nevertheless important to know how the platform works so you can work safely and profitably here. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "You say 'Upwork prohibits freelancers from communicating outside of the Upwork Messages tool before having an official contract in place.' But you aslo say 'I can't recall every being asked to 'sign a contract'. Can you clarify for me? Is there an Upwork contract?"

Angela: You asked a good question.

Sorry if the wording is a bit confusing.

There IS an Upwork contract.

Every time I have been hired by a client on freelancer, I clicked the "Accept" button.

That initiates an official Upwork contract.

But I never signed anything.

I clicked a button.

And that Upwork contract is initiated by using the standard Upwork user interface.

If you are dealing with somebody who is claiming to be a client, and that person is asking you to sign some sort of document instead of click a green "Accept" button, then you are dealing with somebody who is operating outside of the standard Upwork procedures. And there is no way for you to get paid.

As a practical matter, it IS possible for a legitimate client to send a freelancer an additional contract, such as an NDA, and ask the freelancer to physically sign it. I have done that many times.

But even if that happens, the freelancer STILL needs to click the green "Accept" button. And because there is no "signature" or "signing" associated with that, we never refer to that action as "signing a contract."

[0dfb110e]

Thank you, Preston. I couldn't find info about an Upwork Contract when I read their Terms. I actually find it difficult to find a step-by-step process on how to proceed after a client asks you for an interview. I also do not see a green "Accept" button with the job the fake client accepted me for. 

Turns out that I was a victim of a scam. The scammers were probably counting on a newbie not understanding the process. I'm glad I didn't reveal too much....

Angela

[feed_my_eyes]

As Preston says, this is probably a scam rather than a real job, but for future reference, do not agree to a project if you don't understand the scope. Also, while you can indeed end a contract at any time, the client can also leave negative feedback that could impact your ability to win any further projects, so you shouldn't accept unless you know exactly what's required and are confident that you can over-deliver.

[prestonhunter]

re: "I am being asked to sign a contract before I see a scope of work."

It would never make sense to accept a contract without knowing the scope of work, not here on Upwork, and not anywhere else.

There are two types of contracts on Upwork:

- fixed-price

- hourly

Before I accept any fixed-price contract, I have ALREADY received and reviewed all necessary input files AND all needed instructions. I don't accept a fixed-price contract until I have everything I need in order to FINISH the task, without every communicating with the client again.

For an hourly contract, I need to know at least a little about what the work entails. This can be vague. Maybe nothing more than "hired to provide consultation about database design."

So hourly is VERY different from fixed-price when it comes to "scope of work".

But there still needs to be something.

[pgiambalvo]

Upwork does not verify companies who join, but regardless of that, this sounds like one of the many scams you may encounter here, so read and follow the ToS to protect yourself and others and flag the job as inapproriate.

[wescowley · Accepted solution]

Angela, from everything you've described here, this is almost certainly a scam.

1) As others have said, talking to clients outside of Upwork's messenger isn't allowed before you have a contract through Upwork. Some clients just don't know this and need to have it pointed out to them, but very often having a client ask you to interview through Skype or Telegram or anything else outside of Upwork is a prelude to a scam.

2) On Upwork, a contract is done through an offer you'll see in the Upwork chat and on your proposals screen. Until you see that offer and accept it, you don't have an Upwork contract. I'm coming up on three years here and I've never had a legitimate client ask me to sign a different contract. If an Upwork client tries to get you to do work without an Upwork contract, you're probably not going to be paid for it.

Edited to add: here are some things you should read to get started:

- Stickied thread in New to Upwork forum: https://community.Upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/Getting-Started-on-Upwork/m-p/264214#M2460
- Long thread on recognizing scams: https://community.upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/Tips-to-Avoid-Questionable-Jobs/m-p/240833#M25
- New post on recognizing scams: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Community-Blog/From-the-Trust-and-Safety-Team-How-to-Spot-a-Scam/ba-...
- Terms of service: https://www.upwork.com/legal#terms

[0dfb110e]

Thank you. I would love to see an article explaining that process (what happens after an employer selects you for as a candidate). Honestly, the Terms of Service is very dense and I did not find it very helpful. It's not a step-by-step explanation, it's essentially a legal document.

[wescowley]

---

Angela B wrote:

Thank you. I would love to see an article explaining that process (what happens after an employer selects you for as a candidate). Honestly, the Terms of Service is very dense and I did not find it very helpful. It's not a step-by-step explanation, it's essentially a legal document.

---

Another good set of pages to read are the freelancer help pages (see the "Help and Support" link at the bottom of the page. 

And yeah, the TOS is dense, but unlike Netflix or Spotify, it's required reading (or should be). It lays out what you and clients can and can't do here. It also lays out how Upwork will protect you and, more importantly and mainly by omission, how they won't. Most importantly, they don't do any vetting of clients. That's on us to do.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Honestly, the Terms of Service is very dense and I did not find it very helpful."

Well... If we are all being really honest here, LOTS of freelancers and clients don't read the Terms of Service. They just jump in and start using Upwork.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't read it. But at this point I regard "jumping and using the platform" as one of two ways to learn about the platform. I don't really have a problem with people who jump in and use it, as long as they are willing to take their lumps.

Also: The Community Forum is populated by a large number of knowledgeable users who are very willing to answer questions. If you are unsure about something, you can probably find answers to your questions by doing a SEARCH in the Community Forum. And if you don't find the information you're looking for, you can post a question.

[AveryO]

Hi Angela, 

It's a good thing that you followed your gut and asked here in the Community. As our helpful Community members have shared, communicating outside of Upwork before a contract has started is a violation of the Upwork Terms of Service. You and potential clients can set up a meeting to discuss the project scope further, and use the Video and Voice call feature of Upwork Messages to communicate with your client. Once the client sends an offer, and you accept it, a contract is automatically created in your account, and you can start working on the project and communicating through third-party software. 

Take note that users are not allowed to offer and accept payments off Upwork. I highly recommend that you read up on the "Safety First!" section of the freelancer resources we have compiled, and these tips for avoiding questionable jobs for more information about working safely through Upwork. 

It would also be best to visit these articles for more information on how you can keep in line with Upwork's Terms of Service when engaging on the website:

• I’m New Here, What Should I Know?
• On-platform Interviews
• Contact Information Sharing

[martina_plaschka]

It is true that scammers target newbies, experienced freelancers would just laugh them off. 

After a while you will recognize them immediately.

In fact, they are trying to confuse you with things like contracts to sign, questionnaires to fill out, etc. This is just a distraction. The real upwork process is actually uncredibly simple: there are no contracts, nothing is signed, nothing to fill out. 

1. You send a proposal to a job posting. 

2. The client likes your proposal, looks at your profile, and starts a conversation in upwork messenger.

3. You agree on terms.

4. Client sends an offer. You get an email and a notification in upwork.

5. There is a green button "offer". You click it. 

5. You have a contract. 

That's pretty much it.