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Christopher's avatar
Christopher F Community Member

Terms of Service Reminders (Test)

We understand that some clients and freelancers are unaware of our policies to keep communication and payments on the platform. This is why we’re testing how to share important Terms of Service (TOS) reminders with you, so you might see two educational alerts in Messages beginning the first week of April for three weeks. By following our TOS, you can stay safe on our platform and avoid scams.

 

Check out the Product Release and let us know your thoughts about these updates in the comments below.

17 REPLIES 17
Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

I think the idea is fine. We'll see if it works.
A question. I see there are links to information. Besides that I would write them in capital letters, I wonder, where is the scam thread going? To the official thread or the one created by Wes?

Renata's avatar
Renata S Community Member

It's a good point. Wes's post is much less opaque and contains specific information describing the types of scams. I think it's much more accessible.

Valeria's avatar
Valeria K Community Member

Hi Maria, 

That hyperlink goes to Upwork Help page. This article specifically. 

~ Valeria
Upwork
Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Maria, 

That hyperlink goes to Upwork Help page. This article specifically. 


Thank you Valeria.
But I think linking that notice to Wes's thread would be more beneficial. It gives a lot of information and it is updating it.
Just my opinion.

Douglas Michael's avatar
Douglas Michael M Community Member

Since I'm so often quick to criticize, I'll weigh in that this messaging and its implementation do not seem wrongheaded.

 

I'll add that I appreciate the backstory, and the thought that went into responding to our complaints.

 

Finally, I really like the summary box, and hope and trust that it becomes a feature of future releases.

Renata's avatar
Renata S Community Member

I was thinking of recommending something similar today because of the number of forum posts from new freelancers asking about registration fees (a recent addition to the current list of scams circulating on Upwork). I think a reminder that people should never have to pay a client might be appropriate. That seems like a no-brainer, but a lot of newcomers are posting about this one lately.

I think my only issue with the reminders presented is that they appear so unobtrusive that they may go unnoticed. Can you put them in 96-point font and make them flash or something? I'm thinking they should look more like the graphic warnings on cigarette packages.

I'm being a bit tongue-in cheek with that, but only partially. Considering the scope of the problem, this is really no time to create something that tastefully blends with the overall aesthetic or that's so subtle no one notices it.

Something like a pop-up that people have to physically click to close might make them actually read it. I don't know what's possible.

Peter's avatar
Peter G Community Member

Agree mostly, but I'd like to see 172 point font that flashes bright red along with a siren sound.

Peter's avatar
Peter G Community Member

Excellent ideas, thank you. And I realize that this is only a test at this point, but please consider sending these messages (and/or email them) to all new freelancers upon them signing up.

Courtney's avatar
Courtney C Community Manager

Hi Peter, 

 

I'm happy to share that we have already started doing just that! New freelancers all receive a message sharing best practices and tips from our Trust and Safety team, as well as the top ten red flags for detecting a scam posting. We are still working on other opportunities within onboarding to help educate, so stay tuned for more to come.

 

-

Courtney 

Renata's avatar
Renata S Community Member

Thanks for sharing that information, Courtney. I'm so happy to hear that. It's just a jungle out there for new freelancers.

Alaeddine's avatar
Alaeddine M Community Member

Thank you for this helpful feature, especially because it emphasis the educational aspect. Educating users about terms and acceptable uses is better than waiting for them to violate any term to punish them.

Freelancers and clients aren't lawyers and not of them will get and understand the TOS of every website they use, so these kind of reminders are helpful, also if you create events or courses to simplify it instead of the legal jargon.

Olga's avatar
Olga P Community Member

A good move.

Could you include similar thing when clients post the job but regarding asking for any sample, test work etc? More and more clients want freelancers to submit test work when they apply, for free of course. I recently reported dozen of such clients, also those who invited me to submit proposal and then in the course of conversation before hiring, asked me to do "small test sample" to "check if I am good fit". Wonder what is the purpose of portfolio and work history then... 

As for "not all of them will get and understand the TOS" as Alaeddine said - with all due respect but basic logical rules apply and if one can't be bothered with understanding that payments outside chosen platform, communication outside of chosen platform and, re. my request, asking for free work or working for free are against simple basic rules, then the platform is not for them. You can't explain laziness and lack of will to read what you accept when register with sheer "I am not lawyer". 

 

 

Alaeddine's avatar
Alaeddine M Community Member

@Olga, nice suggestion and I think this is technically possible in way that when a client write certains query like " free work" he got an automated reminder! 

Sophie's avatar
Sophie A Community Member

RE: Payment Alert

After contract offers are sent, the second alert appears once in Messages. (Enterprise clients are excluded from seeing this alert.) 

It reminds clients and freelancers to make all payments on Upwork and that it’s a violation of our TOS to make payments any other way.

 

Would it be possible to also mention all payments have to be done on Upwork with the Communication Alert, because when clients are at the "Offer" part of the deal, they already intend to pay through Upwork. That would send a better warning to the freelancer not to accept an offer outside of Upwork once they are communicating.

Pandora's avatar
Pandora H Community Member

Without seeing how obtrustive these are, it's hard to know if they will be affective. I have not seen these alerts myself.

 

On a related note: I have been much more active on Upwork recently, for 2 reasons:

 

1) been posting jobs and conducting screening interviews on behalf of one of my clients

2) been looking for jobs and having interviews (and was very recently hired on a new job like a week ago.

 

Because of this, I have some pretty specific feedback related to the alerts that have been in place prior to the 4/4/22. And I do not believe the updated alerts are going to do much. Why? Well......

 

1. Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. Let me say that again. Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. And...one more time....Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. I recently posted a work-around to this issue online and it got a lot of respect, because a large number of freelancers are annoyed / scared / fed up. This is a HUGE problem, still. I think that a warning about both of these things should appear when a client hits the "Post a Job" button. And they have to click scroll through and then click a button to proceed. And they should appear again, as they are already set to do.

 

2. Freelancers are terrified of being flagged when a client who has no clue about the TOS mentions Calendly, or Zoom, or Skype. I myself have lost 3 interview opportunities in the last 30 days because of this. Even though I was being 100% professional, they thought I was making up this rule for whatever inane reason. I was, for a while, including a link to the page where this rule is shown, but nobody was clicking it. 

 

3. Freelancers are knowingly violating the TOS by avoiding the issue entirely and meeting any way the client wants prior to being hired and not saying a word about the TOS, so as to not loose out on jobs. Which in turn leads back to the #1 issue. See where I am going here?

 

Being in this situation as a Freelancer sucks. Your dammned if you do, and dammned if you don't. 

 

Furthermore, from the client side, there is a lot of denial going on. "Oh, I have been on the site forever, I do not need to worry", is a common response to my warning about this. Another one: "I did a bunch of interviews a month ago, and we scheduled on Calendly. It worked great..what is the problem again?" And yet another one: Upwork should not tell you or us how to establish a working relationship. (That was the only response that made any sense).

Olga's avatar
Olga P Community Member


Pandora H wrote:

1. Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. Let me say that again. Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. And...one more time....Clients have NO clue about the Terms of Service. I recently posted a work-around to this issue online and it got a lot of respect, because a large number of freelancers are annoyed / scared / fed up. This is a HUGE problem, still. I think that a warning about both of these things should appear when a client hits the "Post a Job" button. And they have to click scroll through and then click a button to proceed. And they should appear again, as they are already set to do.

 

2. Freelancers are terrified of being flagged when a client who has no clue about the TOS mentions Calendly, or Zoom, or Skype. I myself have lost 3 interview opportunities in the last 30 days because of this. Even though I was being 100% professional, they thought I was making up this rule for whatever inane reason. I was, for a while, including a link to the page where this rule is shown, but nobody was clicking it. 

 

3. Freelancers are knowingly violating the TOS by avoiding the issue entirely and meeting any way the client wants prior to being hired and not saying a word about the TOS, so as to not loose out on jobs. Which in turn leads back to the #1 issue. See where I am going here?

[...]

Furthermore, from the client side, there is a lot of denial going on. "Oh, I have been on the site forever, I do not need to worry", is a common response to my warning about this. Another one: "I did a bunch of interviews a month ago, and we scheduled on Calendly. It worked great..what is the problem again?" And yet another one: Upwork should not tell you or us how to establish a working relationship. (That was the only response that made any sense).


As I replied in another thread re. this topic (I think this one is like an official one?) making excuses "I don't know ToS" is just pure laziness. People registered on site, they therefore accepted its ToS. As a freelancer I am not going to guess if the client knows or not the rules, I take it they do know them. I lost several potential jobs because I didn't agree to work for free as a "test work" to see if I am a "good fit". I have work history, I have portfolio, they are free to browse and they support my application (test work sure, but paid as a separate contract is an option I always give). And clients get very aggressive if I point out that asking for free work is against ToS. Same as paying outside UW or taking communication wherever. The problem is, I guess, less experienced freelancers being scared of losing the job so they do anything client wants, turning into slaves basically. Often with poor output like client appearing to be scammer. Making it absolutely clear that some things are just not allowed at Upwork and more, pointing out that by registering we accept these terms, must be done in a way that will discourage any breaches of these terms and yes, make them as obtrusive as they need to be, I don't really care, I am conscious enough to click appropriate button to dismiss these messages after reading. Of course, people are people, most of them just want to be "smart" but this in a long run doesn't pay off. So I am all for anything that will clearly show that not following rules will simply get people in trouble. Of course, I have encountered "clients" that were trying to scare me with their "oh, but I have been on this site for years and I am allowed to ask for test/take payment outside/ask for your private email/etc, if you don't agree I will go ahead and report you for [irrelevant explanation goes here]". My only reply is always "please read ToS again, thank you for your time", then report that client and block them. But I get that some freelancers are happy to be scammed and paid $5 for whatever clients wants. Sure, go ahead but away from UW. 

 


Upwork should not tell you or us how to establish a working relationship. (That was the only response that made any sense).


Re. this one - actually this does not make any sense. Not sure how many of you people are gamers but in a cooperation game where each person in a raid has their role to fullfil, the raid leader decides what gear each one of group members is wearing and what they specifically do to defeat the boss they're fighting as a group. You can of course wear and do whatever but if you don't fullfil your role, say, damage dealer not dealing sufficient damage, then it is just not working and raid leader has all the right to ask you to switch gear, skills rotation etc or, replace you. This is called META - Most Effective Tools Available. This is exactly the same with UW - they set META for each part of the contract to fullfill their roles - client and freelancer. They have all the right to exactly tell us how it should be done in compliance with Terms of Service we all accepted by registering here. I am all for rebel, always 🙂 but sometimes you just need to use common sense and not try to reinvent the wheel. UW is not actually telling us how to establish working relationship, they are only giving us the tools - platform, Escrow and support. We use it to SAFELY establish working relationship, if we don't want to follow UW rules, well, we don't have to be here right?

Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

How long will the test last?
As long as Upwork doesn't do something definitive against all scam/spam, I think that, although I don't like so much pop-up, it should be implemented.
We keep seeing freelancers fall for scams over and over again and we keep seeing clients scamming over and over again.

I still think there should be some way to test new freelancers to somehow make them read the bare minimum to be safe.

On the other hand, something a bit off topic, but I think it may have something to do with it.
I'm seeing at profiles of freelancers who are nothing. A ridiculous title and two introductory sentences like "I do the work and I'll give you what you want, hire me."
When I joined Upwork, I had to resubmit my profile for approval I don't know how many times. And that he had work history and a lot of portfolio.
That if the title was not appropriate, that if the summary should be like this or like this, etc... I was about to throw in the towel.
And now anyone can have a profile that fills in, no matter what they write, the title, the presentation and the studies.
This is creating a hunting ground for scammers.

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