Feb 5, 2023 05:57:36 AM by Stephen D
I manually added time to a contract over a week ago for a client who sent an offer with a 40 hour limit for the week. The work was tedious and time consuming. All in all, it took me 38 hours to complete. A few days later, he responds saying that someone else did twice as much of the same work in only 6 hours and he didn't want to pay me that much and that we should work out a solution. I apologized and expressed my confusion that it took me over 12 times longer to complete the work, that I would show him my workflow, and could he share with me how much work the other person completed so that we could compare and find a reasonable compromise. He said he would, but never did. I asked twice, because we can't determine what "fair" is on my end if he is comparing me to someone else but not sharing the work that they did so we could compare. For all I know, this "other person" doesn't exist or only completed a fraction of the work that I did.
Ultimately, I am asking a moderator what to do since the hours were logged over a week ago, the client already closed a contract, and THEN they asked for a refund. There is no option to refuse the request, so do I just not respond? I can't afford for Upwork to just refund the money without my approval.
Please let me know!
Feb 7, 2023 05:26:05 PM Edited Feb 7, 2023 05:36:28 PM by Preston H
To reiterate:
Original poster Stephen D.'s understanding about what is "legal" of "illegal", or his assumptions about such things, are irrelevant to how Upwork operates.
I don't know what that has to do with my house. My house is not on Upwork.
When someone interacts with Upwork, their interactions are governed by Upwork policies and procedures, as manifest both through Upwork software system (source code) and training given to employees. Along with the decisions of actual employees.
If a freelancer sincerely believes that Upwork is breaking the law (and I'm not assuming the original poster holds such a belief), then that belief does not change the way that Upwork actually operates.
Upwork, like all companies, is simultaneously in compliance with the law and in violation on law. There are countless bodies of law and countless jurisdictions, which often have conflicting laws. No company is in compliance with all laws everywhere, and certainly not in compliance with all interpretations of all laws.
Feb 7, 2023 05:19:21 PM by Tiffany S
Did you by chance read the terms of service when you signed up? If not, you should probably do that.
Feb 7, 2023 06:12:35 AM Edited Feb 7, 2023 06:13:28 AM by Will L
Jennifer,
Upwork's policy currently says in regards to fixed price contracts, "If you would like to request a refund directly from a freelancer or agency, you can reach out through Upwork within 180 days of the payment. For refunds on payments made between 180 and 365 days ago, contact support."
Request a Refund – Upwork Customer Service & Support | Upwork Help
On hourly contracts the client "...must file any dispute during the five days after the billing period has closed." And Upwork will helpfully have one of its own employees go through the freelancer's TimeTracker details looking for ineligible time tracked. (If I remember correctly, clients used to have to do this for themselves.)
And we have heard from other freelancers that this "deadline" is not always strictly adhered to.
Feb 7, 2023 06:24:55 AM by Jennifer M
Will L wrote:Jennifer,
Upwork's policy currently says in regards to fixed price contracts, "If you would like to request a refund directly from a freelancer or agency, you can reach out through Upwork within 180 days of the payment. For refunds on payments made between 180 and 365 days ago, contact support."
Request a Refund – Upwork Customer Service & Support | Upwork Help
On hourly contracts the client "...must file any dispute during the five days after the billing period has closed." And Upwork will helpfully have one of its own employees go through the freelancer's TimeTracker details looking for ineligible time tracked. (If I remember correctly, clients used to have to do this for themselves.)
And we have heard from other freelancers that this "deadline" is not always strictly adhered to.
oof. I get so much heat from people who try to tell people manual time is fine and nothing has ever happened to them so surely nothing will ever happen to anyone else. What they don't tell people is that they do so very little selling that they are not the same as someone selling tons of contracts. I don't know how anyone can think that just because nothing ever happened to the 2 contracts they had for the year means that nothing will happen to anyone else. How do you tell people manual time is fine without telling people to protect themselves? Especially when I tell people use Tracker because I've been through this multiple times and it's a no-stress easy way to protect yourself so just do it. Now that I know it protects from chargebacks, it's even better.
OP, I'm sorry this happened but you gotta use Tracker to protect your money. Manual time is the worst way to bill people. Make enough money on Upwork and you will need the protection sooner or later. My personal approach to this would be to go for broke and try to keep the money. Like I said before, I've been through this but I used Tracker so I knew I had all the power.
I'd love to hear how it went down tbh so if you come back and tell your story, that would be cool to hear and it will help others understand how manual time disputes go down.
Feb 7, 2023 07:12:59 AM Edited Feb 7, 2023 07:14:28 AM by Will L
Yeah, a lot of posters here protest that something has always worked for them so it must also work for anyone else. But any freelancer who doesn't fully understand Upwork's rules and procedures, ill-defined as some of them are, should think through how they deal with clients from initial contact through final payment in order to ensure they will get paid.
I would guess I have had Upwork search through my hourly bookings on less than 10 of my 400+ projects over the years. The communications from Upwork never tell me anything other than there is a "problem" with the clients' payment methods, so this may have been due to charges on a confirmed payment method (credit card) being kicked back by the credit card bank due to insufficient credit availability or the client has asked their bank to do a chargeback. Nevertheless, I am notified by Upwork:
"Dear Will,
We're writing to let you know that your client’s payment on Contract ID# XXXXXX with XXXXXX was unsuccessful for the invoice week 20XX-XX-XX.
We've reviewed your work diary and are pleased to inform you that your hours are qualified for Upwork's Hourly Payment Protection.
Please review the payment program’s criteria listed here to ensure future payments are also guaranteed.
Happy Working,
Upwork Trust & Safety Team"
If Upwork decides some of the time I booked did not meet the proper criteria when a client hasn't paid Upwork for an hourly contract Upwork's message let's me know how much billed time they have reversed.
Of course, there are no details given in this case, nor can I dispute the reversal in any way.
But even when Upwork finds time I booked that they reverse it is a smll percentage of my total billing. Just the price of doing business here, I suppose...
Feb 7, 2023 07:31:31 AM Edited Feb 7, 2023 07:35:10 AM by Jennifer M
At least you get the emails. I never get any emails anymore. lol It just shows up on Tuesday instead of Friday.
Just my experience, but I think you get your work diary reviewed the first time but it's often automated after the first time. I think they've manually reviewed my work diary twice, and I've used payment protection 4-5 times now. For anyone crying that Upwork is losing money because of payment protection, know that they get their money back IME a lot. The two times I used it last year, the client came back (albeit weeks) later and paid Upwork their balance. I got my money and Upwork got theirs, if this is what people want to cry about. Before that, they got their money. Of the money they've paid out to me, the only money I'm unsure about is for $500 on my first time using payment protection.
The types of people who say nothing ever happens to them with manual time have very few new contracts sold, use it on repeat clients, and/or sell so little that their risk is small. But still it could happen to them and then they'll be talking about how it happened to them so now everybody should listen to them because now it affects them. The comedy writes itself.
So I'm going to keep telling people to use Tracker whenever possible. I know it's not always possible, but you gotta do what you gotta do to protect your money. Upwork gives you something that nobody else gives you, so use Tracker.
My lowkey theory is that people hate on me for saying these things because they don't like that someone is successful with hourly and want to push escrow. It's the only thing I can think of why you would keep telling people to not protect themselves because they are fine so nothing will happen. The escrow people really have a weird rabid hate for people who go hourly.
Feb 7, 2023 08:00:09 AM by Will L
My most recent hourly protection kicked in when a client told me she couldn't afford to continue to pay me, despite the fact we were nowhere near the total billed hours that I clearly told her initially I expected the project would require.
She actually posted that on the message board (clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer) and I told her I'd have to stop working if I knew she couldn't pay me. She complained to Upwork and wanted a refund. Now, I could have told her no problem, don't worry about paying me, Upwork's hourly protection will cover it. But I didn't think that was ethical, even if it had turned out to be true.
Nonetheless, Upwork reviewed my billed hours on her project !?!? They found nothing, so maybe they just went through the motions to make the client happy.
I was eventually paid in full for the hours I booked. I don't know whether this clown paid Upwork in full.
Feb 7, 2023 09:16:44 AM by Jennifer M
Will L wrote:My most recent hourly protection kicked in when a client told me she couldn't afford to continue to pay me, despite the fact we were nowhere near the total billed hours that I clearly told her initially I expected the project would require.
She actually posted that on the message board (clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer) and I told her I'd have to stop working if I knew she couldn't pay me. She complained to Upwork and wanted a refund. Now, I could have told her no problem, don't worry about paying me, Upwork's hourly protection will cover it. But I didn't think that was ethical, even if it had turned out to be true.
Nonetheless, Upwork reviewed my billed hours on her project !?!? They found nothing, so maybe they just went through the motions to make the client happy.
I was eventually paid in full for the hours I booked. I don't know whether this clown paid Upwork in full.
I feel ya. Just went through this last week. Some people I swear. I told him around 8 hours, charged him 9, and he told me he'd report me if I don't refund him because he thought it would take me 2. Why in the world people think these things, who knows. But, I told him to go ahead and do what he's got to do but I worked those hours and no refunds.
I hate working for individuals, because I think these problems are much more likely. But there are slim pickins these days so as long as they open an hourly contract, I'll do it.
Feb 7, 2023 10:49:46 AM by Jonathan L
In cases, like that, I always ask them for proof - which they never provide. And it is why I think meeting notes for audio/video calls are so great.
Feb 7, 2023 11:58:09 AM by Alper D
Here's what i try to do as a freelancer :
* i set my hourly rates and business strategy in a way that i can always afford to return a client a few weeks worth of budget. I should not starve if i dont get paid for a week or two
* I always use desktop tracker. If i use manual time for a reason, i tell the client so they are not surprised
* I usually stay away from jobs where i cant see an estimated timeline for accomplishment and talk about this upfront. Because, start with the end in mind, that is, leaving a happy client behind.
So lets ask yourself this, there are freelancers made more than a million working solo here on upwork. Within this pool or wealth, if a client is unhappy about your performance, i'd try to find a way to make them happy and consider i bought myself an expensive training.
Mar 7, 2024 10:20:46 PM by Regina S. P
Hello Stephen,
I told my client that I can not conitue working. After she ended the hourly contract on March 5, she then asked for a refund from 02/05/2024 - 02/11/2024 and 02/12/2024 - 02/18/2024 (15 hours per week). I logged to UP tracker with work diaries within that prescribed period. Accused me too of stealing from her. Am I obliged to refund her since I adhere to Upwork policies? What will happen if I WON'TE REFUND her? Will it affect my JSS. By the way she is a 3rd time returning client. Thank you for your inputs.
Mar 8, 2024 05:45:51 AM Edited Mar 8, 2024 05:47:27 AM by Will L
Regina S. P,
Once you engage in a contract with a client on Upwork, they have a permanent ability to leave feedback for you. And client feedback is the only thing that determines your JSS.
Some clients are consistently difficult to work with. Upwork hasn't said how it measures "difficult to work with," but Upwork also says feedback from such clients has no effect on their freelancers' JSS numbers. Unfortunately, we cannot know exactly which clients achieve this honor.
If you used TimeTracker correctly, Upwork's hourly payment protection should kick in for you if the client doesn't pay Upwork the amounts she was billed for those weeks. You are never obliged to repay properly tracked billed work time.
Move on to other projects; forget about this client's threats. You almost certainly can't do anything to change her mind about whatever she has decided about rating your services. There is no assurance refunding her your earned money would help you in that respect.
If Upwork does decide to go through your TimeTracker work time with a fine-toothed comb, there is also nothing you can do. There will be no transparency for you in Upwork's decision to reverse any of your billed time; no input from you will affect that decision.
Good luck!
Mar 10, 2024 06:08:49 AM by Regina S. P
Hello Will,
Thank for the inputs. Currently, we are now with Upwork Mediation specialist and he is requiring me to submit proof of work. All I have is the spreadsheet shared by the client. I logged to Upwork tracker from Feb 5 - 10 anf Feb 11 - 17. These are are the period covered for clinet's request for refund. Client is accusing me of stealing time from her. Tasks and time is covered with work diaries. I don't want to refund but the client insisted that I owe her 40 hours (contract was 15 hours per week only). Prior to her dispute she asked me to work wihtout billing her and I did. Yes, the client is very hard to understand and she is a 3rd time returning client. Now Upwork Mediation Specialist is askig me to submit Proof of Work??? What shall I submit - UP can check my work diaries and can determine. Please advise and help me - I am 67 years old freelancer here. Thank you and God Bless!
Mar 10, 2024 06:36:31 AM Edited Mar 10, 2024 06:39:19 AM by Will L
Did you do work on the spreadsheet? If so, I hope you kept copies of each iteration, which would show the many changes you made to the spreadsheet in relation to the hours you billed the client via TimeTracker.
You should always keep copies of each iteration of changes you make to a client's original document, so you can revert to an earlier version during your work (if needed) and to show proof of work.
The second reason is part of what I call "freelancing defensively." Always assume every client could complain to Upwork to try to get billed time reversed. You can shut such a request down quickly with clear factual proof you did the work you billed the client for.
At the very least, you should have a copy of the client's original worksheet and a copy of the most recent version you sent her. Point out to the mediator all the changes you made, which (s)he can verify by comparing the two documents.
Good luck.
Mar 10, 2024 06:45:50 AM by Regina S. P
Yes, I have the copy of the spreadsheet no changes in the spreadsheet and I marked /hi lighted those emails that I sent randomly. Thank you, Will! Can I asked for favor? A simple draft for this for my reference, please? Tnx Regina.
Mar 10, 2024 07:19:07 AM by Will L
Just explain to the mediator in simple terms what the file(s) you're sending reflect and why you have highlighted certain sections.
Mar 10, 2024 08:41:59 PM by Regina S. P
Yes, will and thank you so much! Should I need more advices will ping you then.
Mar 10, 2024 07:41:39 AM Edited Mar 10, 2024 08:26:35 AM by Radia L
You have a number of clients complaining about the same thing.
I'm sorry, but in my opinion we can't charge people on remote freelancing like we're being paid on an office or similar jobs. Unless maybe, if the job requires you to "wait" for X hours, like customer service jobs etc.
I see one client also complain about you charging them on slow internet. I discount my billable time when my internet is slow. Clients would ditch me if they see me do task X for 1 hour where a newbie programmer could also do it within the same time. I'm also here since oDesk times but I'm not really a fan of this site btw.