Jul 26, 2019 11:03:05 AM Edited Jul 26, 2019 01:31:23 PM by Valeria K
The quality of invites I've received has gotten steadily worse in the past year, but this is the most ludicrous I've seen in a while. We're charged 20% fees, we have to pay for connects, clients are now on membership plans ... yet I'm still getting invites like the one below? So is this where the site is heading?
(And how **Edited for Community Guidelines** has this client managed to send hundreds of **Edited for Community Guidelines** invites? Are they on the so-called Business plan? I find it hard to believe that this kind of client is paying Upwork $500 a month...)
**Edited for Community Guidelines**
Solved! Go to Solution.
Jul 27, 2019 06:24:36 PM by Virginia F
Sanja D wrote:
Wendy C wrote:Sanja, it becomes a case of letting words do what the system can't. I know this isn't the ideal but it can be accomplshed.
I know - but it would be kind of confusing if I created a specialized profile for - let's say 2d design (that one does exist) and start with "well, I don't really do this much - but take a look at some examples of my booklet designs" 😉
Especially when most clients wouldn't think (or know) to call their print jobs 2D. All I do is design for print, but within that very broad catagory, lies everything from business cards to trade show banners, from simple flyers to catalogs and posters and event programs and ads and on and on. In the end, print design is a specialized category in and of itself. I do not need, nor want, to separate it out into all the many things I have experience doing. Clients have found me and I have found them, all without a "special" profile.
But mostly, I don't like the fact that we are once again being forced into something, that Upwork is once again inserting itself into our personal business, making decisions that we very well know are never based on any actual knowledge of what will work for us, or what we do.
Give people the option to say no, I don't need or want that. That we can no longer edit our portfolios because we will then be forced into a specialized profile is BS of the highest degree.
Jul 29, 2019 05:49:37 PM by Rohan Been S
You won't belive that I have got just one invitation this month where I used to have like 2+ per day. They say that clients can't invite more than 3 now. But a very few clients did invite 3+ in the past. So changes shouldn't be this far!!
Aug 3, 2019 07:14:32 AM Edited Aug 3, 2019 07:15:32 AM by Robert B
Tiffany S wrote:It seems like there's been a big split, and some good freelancers ended up on the wrong side of it. People seem either to be saying what OP is saying here, or saying that they're getting more great invitations than ever.
Maybe I should pay closer to attention to the invites from UpWork's talent team then. They looked to me like they were outsourced.
I suspected they were working on targets, like to get their clients 100 relevant leads or something.
Jul 27, 2019 09:37:28 PM by Krystal C
Jul 28, 2019 04:48:03 AM by Wendy C
Amen to the most UNprofessional and cartoonist idea U. ever came up with .... DUMP THIS. Please.
"not to mention flying rockets, fires and stars placed on our "professional" profile pages"
Aug 4, 2019 12:57:10 AM by Richard L
Krystal,
I don't know what you do, but that was really perfectly stated. My landscape is not enhanced here either regardless of what I've earned for Upwork over the past two years. They are not trying to benefit clients or freelancers, and it looks like they are trying to dive profit into the ground. The movie The Producers comes to mind. They can make more for a failure from the investors than a hit.
Jul 28, 2019 07:54:05 AM by Isabelle Anne A
Wendy C wrote:Isabelle, I found that creating a second profile boosted the quality of invites - both client initiated and invite only as these are the ones that fit what I do on a consistent basis.
Much as I know you don't want to --- there is a way to separate out your areas of expertize. PM me and I'll run through how I did it + what I did. You can too. And it will help -
Wendy I appreciate the offer (you know I really do), but I simply don't want specialized profiles for very good reasons.
Jul 28, 2019 08:59:39 AM Edited Jul 28, 2019 09:01:21 AM by Sergio S
Isabelle Anne A wrote:
I just don't understand how almost everyone here seems to be okay with all of this. I am a bit astounded and saddened by how the star/rocket icons got more attention from respected freelancers / forum regulars than the other major (serious) changes that Upwork has recently introduced.
I don't think we are ok but I feel that Upwork are using the tagline "Take it or leave it" more than before and this is becoming less amusing every time, leaving us with no options at all. The same happens with mostly all services that are free, like FB, Lnkd, etc. I am shocked about the portfolio/specialized profile "compliance" which I was not aware of. I sometimes wonder if they are tired of freelancers and create all this to weed out people. With the recent changes they are weeding out clients too! So I guess they will need to rethink what they are doing, because so far they have been using the trial-and-error approach a little too much. Some time ago there was a great fuss about the proposals being archived.
Jul 28, 2019 09:24:57 AM by Virginia F
Isabelle Anne A wrote:
Wendy C wrote:Isabelle, I found that creating a second profile boosted the quality of invites - both client initiated and invite only as these are the ones that fit what I do on a consistent basis.
Much as I know you don't want to --- there is a way to separate out your areas of expertize. PM me and I'll run through how I did it + what I did. You can too. And it will help -
Wendy I appreciate the offer (you know I really do), but I simply don't want specialized profiles for very good reasons.
I am not starving for work at the moment, as I have other stuff going on in addition to plenty of work from long-term clients (for now). So I don't exactly need the invites or connects, but that doesn't mean I like receiving crappy invites or paying for connects -- I mean, are my fees really going toward this kind of service?I know at some point Upwork will leave me no choice but to split my profile up, and I know how to do so when that time comes. But I don't appreciate Upwork butting into the way I market my business to clients (the way they run things, they clearly don't know what they're doing).Taking away the ability to add more portfolio items was really like a slap in the face, as clients have told me that they looked at my portfolio before hiring me. I get equally outraged by other changes that don't affect me but that are still unfair (yes, I know some people here sneer at that word) and/or ridiculous.I just don't understand how almost everyone here seems to be okay with all of this. I am a bit astounded and saddened by how the star/rocket icons got more attention from respected freelancers / forum regulars than the other major (serious) changes that Upwork has recently introduced.
We're with you, Isabelle Anne (many of us) ... but re rockets and stars - sometimes we just need a little comic relief.
Jul 28, 2019 01:27:21 PM Edited Jul 28, 2019 01:27:52 PM by Wendy C
Isabelle, the inability to add work to one's portfolio reminds me a bit of denying people the basic right to work ... and that is illegal. It also flies in the face of standard good business practice.
IMHO (and only mine), limiting FLer ability to showcase their work is tantamount to saying "take your business elsewhere". Either U. does not want to generate revenue from the talents of FLers or the number crunchers have determined U will make more income using less bandwidth than would be needed to allow for additional work.
Trying to ramrod FL - or buyers for that matter - into pigeon holes to suit a mobile app or an ever increasing push to 'form an agency' won't work.
And even if you don't need my offer - it's there at any time you want to make use of it. 🙂
Jul 29, 2019 09:25:08 AM by Virginia F
Here's what I'd like to know. This is the message that now pops up when opening a job post to bid:
"Specialized profiles can help you better highlight your expertise when submitting proposals to jobs like these."
How do you know this, Upwork? Was extensive testing done (doubtful)? What is the metric you used to come up with this statement? Did someone just come up with the idea, throw it at a wall and hope it stuck?
Prove this statement. I'm sure many would like to see hard proof, across all the categories, that this makes a difference ... a significant difference.
Jul 29, 2019 09:31:30 AM by Sanja D
Virginia F wrote:Here's what I'd like to know. This is the message that now pops up when opening a job post to bid:
"Specialized profiles can help you better highlight your expertise when submitting proposals to jobs like these."
How do you know this, Upwork? Was extensive testing done (doubtful)? What is the metric you used to come up with this statement? Did someone just come up with the idea, throw it at a wall and hope it stuck?
Prove this statement. I'm sure many would like to see hard proof, across all the categories, that this makes a difference ... a significant difference.
I posted this link in another specialized profile thread, so I'll repeat it here
https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013750068-Create-a-Specialized-Profile
please note this part from the very first paragraph:
For example, you can separate out the work you've done as a mobile game developer from your work as a translator or graphic designer.
that's what those specialized profiles are for - cross category freelancers (I wasn't aware that there are so many of them...)
Jul 29, 2019 09:57:03 AM Edited Jul 29, 2019 09:59:28 AM by Virginia F
Sanja D wrote:
Virginia F wrote:Here's what I'd like to know. This is the message that now pops up when opening a job post to bid:
"Specialized profiles can help you better highlight your expertise when submitting proposals to jobs like these."
How do you know this, Upwork? Was extensive testing done (doubtful)? What is the metric you used to come up with this statement? Did someone just come up with the idea, throw it at a wall and hope it stuck?
Prove this statement. I'm sure many would like to see hard proof, across all the categories, that this makes a difference ... a significant difference.
I posted this link in another specialized profile thread, so I'll repeat it here
https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013750068-Create-a-Specialized-Profileplease note this part from the very first paragraph:
For example, you can separate out the work you've done as a mobile game developer from your work as a translator or graphic designer.
that's what those specialized profiles are for - cross category freelancers (I wasn't aware that there are so many of them...)
And that may be the only incidence where specialized profiles make sense. I remember seeing threads from FL's wanting to know if they could add more (and different) skills to their profiles - this may be Upwork's way of accommodating those FL's. But that doesn't mean it should be forced on everyone across the board.
ETA: What's funny is the many times mods suggest to freelancers that it's best to focus on one skill and not try to be a jack-of-all-trades.
Jul 29, 2019 11:45:30 AM by Douglas Michael M
Virginia F wrote:
Sanja D wrote:
Virginia F wrote:Here's what I'd like to know. This is the message that now pops up when opening a job post to bid:
"Specialized profiles can help you better highlight your expertise when submitting proposals to jobs like these."
How do you know this, Upwork? Was extensive testing done (doubtful)? What is the metric you used to come up with this statement? Did someone just come up with the idea, throw it at a wall and hope it stuck?
Prove this statement. I'm sure many would like to see hard proof, across all the categories, that this makes a difference ... a significant difference.
I posted this link in another specialized profile thread, so I'll repeat it here
https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013750068-Create-a-Specialized-Profileplease note this part from the very first paragraph:
For example, you can separate out the work you've done as a mobile game developer from your work as a translator or graphic designer.
that's what those specialized profiles are for - cross category freelancers (I wasn't aware that there are so many of them...)
And that may be the only incidence where specialized profiles make sense. I remember seeing threads from FL's wanting to know if they could add more (and different) skills to their profiles - this may be Upwork's way of accommodating those FL's. But that doesn't mean it should be forced on everyone across the board.
ETA: What's funny is the many times mods suggest to freelancers that it's best to focus on one skill and not try to be a jack-of-all-trades.
There's no evidence that the use case specified in the general rollout—offering unrelated skills—makes sense either to Upwork or to most of us. There was a lengthy pilot of specialized profiles, and presumably it produced the good numbers Upwork touts. The problem is, the pilot was for IT providers, where a very specific degree of specialization of skills may make sense to both sellers and buyers. Extrapolating results from that pilot to the general population of freelancers—not to mention the apparent creation out of whole cloth of a use case—is another stunning but unsurprising instance of Upwork's cluelessness about the nature of professional freelancing.
Aug 4, 2019 01:05:44 AM by Richard L
I missed something. I have one profile and I should have three. I am not "forced" to make more. It is clearly a choice. Do it or don't. Who "forced" you?
Jul 29, 2019 11:10:04 AM by Richard L
Isabelle,
I'd have to agree that you'd think getting charged 20% would cover the 15 cent per connect fee. It is really ridiculous because I make so much more, but that 15 cents bothers me on principle. They are just milking the freelancers as they do with the ridiculous amount of time that it takes to get paid. That delay gives them the opportunity to earn interest on what must be millions of dollars a month. I am pretty frustrated with the nickle and diming right now. And there has not been one response to any feature enhancement I've suggested over 2.5 years. All of them simply get marked as closed.
The community is not improving, and it should be. The leadership is ignoring the constituents. it makes no sense.
Jul 29, 2019 11:15:47 AM by Petra R
Richard L wrote:That delay gives them the opportunity to earn interest on what must be millions of dollars a month.
They don't earn interest.
Richard L wrote:The leadership is ignoring the constituents. it makes no sense.
We're not constituents.
We (or rather what we offer) are the product Upwork sells.
Richard L wrote:. And there has not been one response to any feature enhancement I've suggested over 2.5 years. All of them simply get marked as closed.
That means "Thanks for your suggestion. We may use it one day, but probabably not."
Jul 29, 2019 12:13:29 PM by Richard L
Jul 29, 2019 12:47:49 PM by Virginia F
Richard L wrote:
Why would they not put money in an interest-earning account while it is
waiting to be disbursed? Not taking advantage of that would be seriously
bad business practice. How do you know they don't earn interest? The
money is out of the client account and it isn't in mine...Is it on a
shelf somewhere?
Because Upwork is not a bank, and it would be illegal for them to do so. The money belongs to the client, and then the freelancer.
However, I would imagine that Upwork could earn interest on money earned from the sale of connects.
Jul 29, 2019 01:18:29 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 01:28:34 PM by Valeria K
So...Upwork collects money in escrow and they purposely put it in a
non-interest-earning account? **Edited for Community Guidelines**They have to be
sure they can pay freelancers, so they get the money into escrow. They
certainly don't keep it in a safe at the company.
Jul 29, 2019 01:21:05 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 01:29:07 PM by Valeria K
Richard L wrote:
So...Upwork collects money in escrow and they purposely put it in a
non-interest-earning account? **Edited for Community Guidelines** They have to be
sure they can pay freelancers, so they get the money into escrow. They
certainly don't keep it in a safe at the company.
That is not what I said. Have fun with your straw men.
Jul 29, 2019 01:23:32 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 01:30:09 PM by Valeria K
Douglas Michael M wrote:
Richard L wrote:
So...Upwork collects money in escrow and they purposely put it in a
non-interest-earning account? **Edited for Community Guidelines**They have to be
sure they can pay freelancers, so they get the money into escrow. They
certainly don't keep it in a safe at the company.That is not what I said. Have fun with your straw men.
Not what I said, either. And neither Douglas nor I are "daffy".
Jul 29, 2019 01:25:17 PM by Douglas Michael M
Virginia F wrote:
Douglas Michael M wrote:
Richard L wrote:
So...Upwork collects money in escrow and they purposely put it in a
non-interest-earning account? You are a little daffy. They have to be
sure they can pay freelancers, so they get the money into escrow. They
certainly don't keep it in a safe at the company.That is not what I said. Have fun with your straw men.
Not what I said, either. And neither Douglas nor I are "daffy".
Speak for yourself, Virginia.
Jul 29, 2019 01:38:39 PM by Valeria K
Richard and others,
Feel free to refer to Escrow Instructions section of the ToS for information about Upwork Escrow Inc.
I would also like to use this opportunity to remind the participants of this thread of the Community Guidelines.
Thanks.
Aug 3, 2019 12:04:19 PM by Tiffany S
Richard L wrote:So...Upwork collects money in escrow and they purposely put it in a
non-interest-earning account? **Edited for Community Guidelines**They have to be
sure they can pay freelancers, so they get the money into escrow. They
certainly don't keep it in a safe at the company.
Yes. They purposely put it in the type of account that is legally required of them as an escrow agent mingling funds owned by a wide variety of people.
Aug 4, 2019 01:09:44 AM by Richard L
"They purposely put it in the type of account that is legally required of them as an escrow agent mingling funds owned by a wide variety of people." and nowhere does it state that they can not earn interest on that account.
Aug 4, 2019 02:25:26 AM by Richard L
Jul 29, 2019 12:57:23 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 12:59:21 PM by Douglas Michael M
Richard L wrote:
Why would they not put money in an interest-earning account while it is
waiting to be disbursed? Not taking advantage of that would be seriously
bad business practice. How do you know they don't earn interest? The
money is out of the client account and it isn't in mine...Is it on a
shelf somewhere?
Because Upwork is acting as an escrow agent, what they can and cannot do with escrowed funds—including how long they can hold them, whether and what they can earn from them, and under what circumstances they can release them—is prescribed by law.
Jul 29, 2019 01:27:02 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 01:32:21 PM by Douglas Michael M
Upwork is governed by California law. I welcome your invitation for a legal research contract.
Jul 29, 2019 01:29:50 PM by Virginia F
Hopefully a mod will come along soon to explain the legalities they have to adhere to. In the meantime, I hope this thread gets back on topic.
Jul 29, 2019 01:33:06 PM by Sanja D
Virginia F wrote:Hopefully a mod will come along soon to explain the legalities they have to adhere to. In the meantime, I hope this thread gets back on topic.
not really sure the mods are informed about these things...
Jul 29, 2019 02:18:28 PM Edited Jul 29, 2019 02:20:57 PM by Wendy C
Richard, read CA law before you try to interpret it. You, quite simply, do not know what you are talking about.
As Michael stated, the test period for Specialized Profile was tested solely with IT talent. Not a wise decision, perhaps; certainly a skewed one.
However, there are ways for many writers, editor, and translators to create a SP. For editors divy it up based on the various forms of editing (IF you work in more than one and actually know the differences); for translators - while your general profile is focused on translation pe se, do a SP that hones in medical, legal, financial, or scientific translation IF true.
Jul 29, 2019 02:37:06 PM by Richard L
Wendy,
That there are laws doesn't mean there are not ways around following them. What I asked was if the escrow was put into an account that earned interest. Someone said it was not. I then tried to find out where it was put. I assume you must know as you seem a bit adamant.
I made no claim to try and interpret CA law, and I'm not even sure it is applicable. I also asked for the code, as I would assume that anyone who made claims of knowing would be familiar enough to provide it. All I found on Upwork was this:
https://www.upwork.com/legal#upwork-escrow
And that really doesn't say much. So I looked into California law and found this:
https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/basics-law-and-practice-escrow
Which states nothing at all about interest. Then I found this:
"For the most part, a bank is not required to pay interest on any escrow accounts(also known as mortgage impound accounts) it holds for its customers. ... The states that do require interest payments on escrow accounts are as follows: Alaska.California."
Which strangely states that California is one of two states that pays interest on escrow accounts. Hmm. Isn't that strange.
I wonder...Have YOU done the research?
Jul 29, 2019 03:51:29 PM by Sanja D
Richard,
I believe that's regarding mortgage escrow in California.
However, I wasn't able to find any info if holding escrow can earn interest ...
interest or not - 5 day "security" period is silly, IMO. clients have days and weeks to review the work - what's the point of security period?
also - I wasn't able to get the info from UW representatives - who has the copyright to the work provided in those 5 days? client paid for the work and the money is no longer on their account. freelancer didn't get paid (they will, eventually...unless...client initiates a chargeback?) - so, if I as a freelancer didn't get the money - why should I transfer the copyright to the client?
Jul 29, 2019 04:05:41 PM by Wendy C
Sanja, if I'm not mistaken the FL owns the work until payment lands in and clears FL account.
Jul 29, 2019 04:11:39 PM by Sanja D
Wendy C wrote:Sanja, if I'm not mistaken the FL owns the work until payment lands in and clears FL account.
well, that's what I thought...but the trick is - you have to provide files , and once provided, files can be used. clients usually don't want to wait those 5 days. it's not really a problem when files are used online - I managed to take down a few sites and FB pages, lol. But - if the files are used for print - there's no way you can stop them from being used. so those 5 days are not really a good idea...
Jul 29, 2019 09:40:21 PM by Richard L
Wendy,
If I do an editing job and I send the work to the client, the client has the work. At that point they can refuse to pay. What are they going to do to return the work, send me the file? Claim to destroy the work?
In the only such case I had — and I do this all the time to avoid such issues or correct the direction — I provided the first 50% of the work as per a milestone and it was approved and half the payment was applied. This implies the client was satisfied with the work. When I sent the second half, the client refused to pay. The work was just as good or better.
I should have read the warning signs in the client's behavior. I was then surprised that Upwork made up for that client's failure to pay when I refused to go to arbitration (the cost of which would have been $1 more than I would have made). Thank you Upwork, I had no idea.
That client got 100% of the work for 50% of the cost. They got the work 20 days or so before the resolution (I forget exactly how long it took). If I owned the work, I most certainly did not get it back, and the client will likely have used it.
Aug 3, 2019 12:08:34 PM by Tiffany S
Richard L wrote:Wendy,
If I do an editing job and I send the work to the client, the client has the work. At that point they can refuse to pay. What are they going to do to return the work, send me the file? Claim to destroy the work?
In the only such case I had — and I do this all the time to avoid such issues or correct the direction — I provided the first 50% of the work as per a milestone and it was approved and half the payment was applied. This implies the client was satisfied with the work. When I sent the second half, the client refused to pay. The work was just as good or better.
I should have read the warning signs in the client's behavior. I was then surprised that Upwork made up for that client's failure to pay when I refused to go to arbitration (the cost of which would have been $1 more than I would have made). Thank you Upwork, I had no idea.
That client got 100% of the work for 50% of the cost. They got the work 20 days or so before the resolution (I forget exactly how long it took). If I owned the work, I most certainly did not get it back, and the client will likely have used it.
Sounds like you chose not to go to arbitration. Did you send the client a notice advising that since they had not paid for the second half of the work, you were retaining rights to it and they were not permitted to use it? If it was web content or published content, did you check to see whether it had been used and pursue your rights, such as issuing a DMCA takedown notice?
Aug 4, 2019 01:28:09 AM by Richard L
Tiffany,
I edit the raw text. I work in the development of manuscripts. I sent the client my work, and they chose not to pay for the latter 50%. Is your reading comprehension up to snuff?
NOTHING I do will be directly published. That is writing or proofreading. I help develop ideas. People might publish a book years later. For example, I worked with David Sedaris in about 1994 on his book of stories Holiday on Ice. It was published and then part of it was turned into the movie Elf. This generous man contacted me later and sent me a check for more than double my original fee. I never expect it. I don't track former clients. I worked with Dee Hock (an infamously unfamous man) on Birth of a Chaordic Age. He created VISA...the darned card you may likely have in your pocket. He copyrighted my suggestion for a change in the title. That is not something *I* own, and I begrudge none of it.
You are thinking of a deliverable as a usable product. That is not the case. Consultancy is not a definitive product.
Jul 29, 2019 05:53:51 PM by Valeria K
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