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Regarding the name of the country where the client resides

des2013
Active Member
Thomas K Member Since: Feb 26, 2016
11 of 26

How do you setup advance payment on an hourly job?  Just report and bill for hours not yet worked?

petra_r
Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
12 of 26

@Dan S wrote:

Not having clients post their country or have verified payment promotes scams by clients. I bid on jobs with no verified payment but I don't do one thing till I get a 50% down payment released to me, not just in escrow but in my pocket. Honest clients don't have a problem with this but scammers balk at it so I dump them and tell them why.


 Scammers don't usually fund Escrow either....

 

A lot of honest clients have a huge problem with releasing a milestone upfront because by doing so they state and agree that the work was done. They have no recourse. Escrow is a relatively recent thing on Upwork, and a lot of the older clients had money stolen from them by freelancers taking an up front payment and simply vanishing.

 

So the fact that a client declines to pay 50% up front signing away all rights to receive anything for that money because they have already confirmed that they have received the work does not mean they are scammers. It may just mean that they have been there before, and don't want to go there again.

 

I absolutely appreciate that the chances of YOU running off with a client's up front payment are slim to nil. But in the days before Escrow it happened over and over again and the whole point of Escrow is to assure the freelancer that the funds are in place, pending the work, and assure the client that the funds are safe, pending approval of the deliverables.

 

Neither party can easily con the other provided a bit of common sense is applied.

 

Just as we keep telling freelancers to not hand over anything until the funds are in Esrow, should we not advise clients to not release any money until they've seen something FOR that money?

 

 

researchediting
Community Guru
Douglas Michael M Member Since: May 22, 2015
13 of 26

@Petra R wrote:

Just as we keep telling freelancers to not hand over anything until the funds are in Esrow, should we not advise clients to not release any money until they've seen something FOR that money?


No, we should not. Advance deposits, or retainers, are common in some industries, and the milestone can be clearly described as just that. There is no need for a client to give away the store, or lie to Upwork about deliverables having been received, let alone to forfeit any expectation of or rights to the work contracted for. Those can all be specified in the buyer and seller's own contract, and have nothing to do with using Upwork as a channel for transferring money.

 

Best,

Michael

petra_r
Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
14 of 26

@Douglas Michael M wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

Just as we keep telling freelancers to not hand over anything until the funds are in Esrow, should we not advise clients to not release any money until they've seen something FOR that money?


No, we should not.


 So, when the client pays 50% upfront into Escrow, and releases it, and the freelancer does absolutely nothing and vanishes, the client has what hope of seeing his money back when it's been released?

elastella
Community Guru
Ela K Member Since: Feb 9, 2015
15 of 26

@Petra R wrote:

@Douglas Michael M wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

Just as we keep telling freelancers to not hand over anything until the funds are in Esrow, should we not advise clients to not release any money until they've seen something FOR that money?


No, we should not.


 So, when the client pays 50% upfront into Escrow, and releases it, and the freelancer does absolutely nothing and vanishes, the client has what hope of seeing his money back when it's been released?


Petra,

 

Sometimes it doesn't work to just quote one sentence out of context (actually, that never really works...).

Michael was clearly referring to cases where the parties have some kind of understanding about that milestone being a retainer or similar, requiring no delivery of work on part of the freelancer. And having some sort of contractual agreement about this, which you can set up at all times.

petra_r
Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
16 of 26

Ela, I understand where you're coming from, it was this bit I found problematic:

 

"I don't do one thing till I get a 50% down payment released to me, not just in escrow but in my pocket. Honest clients don't have a problem with this but scammers balk at it"

 

which makes it sound like no honest client will have a problem with paying 50% up front to someone they don't know, and that people who balk at it are likely scammers.

 

Agreements are all very well, but if the freelancer takes the money and runs the client, especially if he is in another country, has little or no chance of getting their money back. That was the whole point of Escrow being brought in. To stop freelancers running off with with up front payments and clients running off with work without paying.

 

 

 

 

impactwebdesign
Community Leader
Dan S Member Since: Jul 26, 2015
17 of 26

I previously wrote:

Not having clients post their country or have verified payment promotes scams by clients. I bid on jobs with no verified payment but I don't do one thing till I get a 50% down payment released to me, not just in escrow but in my pocket. Honest clients don't have a problem with this but scammers balk at it so I dump them and tell them why.

 

Petra R. Wrote

Scammers don't usually fund Escrow either....

A lot of honest clients have a huge problem with releasing a milestone upfront because by doing so they state and agree that the work was done. They have no recourse. Escrow is a relatively recent thing on Upwork, and a lot of the older clients had money stolen from them by freelancers taking an up front payment and simply vanishing.

So the fact that a client declines to pay 50% up front signing away all rights to receive anything for that money because they have already confirmed that they have received the work does not mean they are scammers. It may just mean that they have been there before, and don't want to go there again.

____________________________________________________

 

I get only a small portion of our web site development work from Upwork, most comes from past clients and their referrals. My 50% up front policy applies to all my clients, even the older ones that I know well. It's the way we do business, if a client has a problem with it they can hire someone else. We are never out of work so if a client does not want to put up a 50% down payment than someone else quickly will.

cclapper
Community Guru
Cathleen C Member Since: Aug 17, 2015
18 of 26

But why does country of proposal origin even need to be connected to payment method? Why can't the country question be included in the basic Post a Job requirement?

 

I understand there are new clients who have no clue what kind of proposals they are going to get on their projects and figure some are just fishing for quotes, but frankly, if a client isn't willing to add a method of payment, are they really serious about hiring?

 

 

jsutherland
Community Guru
Jean S Member Since: Oct 22, 2007
19 of 26

@Cathleen C wrote:

But why does country of proposal origin even need to be connected to payment method? Why can't the country question be included in the basic Post a Job requirement?

 

I understand there are new clients who have no clue what kind of proposals they are going to get on their projects and figure some are just fishing for quotes, but frankly, if a client isn't willing to add a method of payment, are they really serious about hiring?

 

 



In my category this is exactly what happens. 90% of my clients start with no payment method and of those who want to hire me 100% then give all the necessary information to verify their payment method and all other necessary information. As well, I often get clients who hire me 3-6 weeks after I apply. But that's just my category.

 

I would not want to impose rules that may affect people in other categories that I do not understand or work in.

 

petra_r
Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
20 of 26

I agree with Jean

 

The majority of new clients come here to see what is available. They feel "safe" posting a job, especially if there is no cost and no need to add a payment method. Then, when they find *the* person, they most cheerfully add their payment method just to hire that one (or more) person(s).

 

Requiring a client to add a payment method before posting a job would cut the scammers, sure. However, it would also cut the genuine new clients dramatically.

 

I would rather simply avoid and flag the scammers and have fab new clients to choose from.

 

Personally I could not possibly care less which country any client is in. As long as they can speak enough English or German to let me know what they want from me they could be in a purple bathtub orbiting Mars for all I care.

 

I've had the privilege to work with some absolutely wonderful and fascinating personalities from the widest range of cultural and geographical backgrounds. When we work here we're not primarily in a country, we're "on the Internet!"

 

Those who "need" to know, for their own reasons, where a prospective client is may choose to ignore job postings from clients who do not show that info. Those who don't want to apply for contracts from clients who have not verified their payment method yet may choose to ignore their job postings. It's really perfectly simple...

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