Why don't you follow the Terms of Service?

[the-right-writer]

This is a sincere question to all freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed. The vast majority of people who get into trouble do not know the Terms of Service. I am looking for honest responses, not the story of being scammed or how unfair it is.

Why don't you know and follow the Terms of Service?

A) I didn't read anything before signing up

B) I can't understand it because it is too complicated

C) I can't understand it because of language barriers even in translations

D) I know about freelancing, so I ignored it

E) I'm here to make money

F) What's a Terms of Service?

[kfarnell]

Sure.

1. That an abridged and simplified English version of the terms of service be posted somewhere obvious so it can be seen even when you're not looking for it.

2. That this abridged version is correctly linked to the appropriate sections in the actual terms of service throughout to facilitate finding further details when required.

3. That it is translated into the languages of the majority of new freelancers first, extending that into other languages, the order based on the languages used by the highest percentages of freelancer who may struggle with English. And that a link appears in the main abridged version so these translations are easily found.

4. That a Q & A forum is dedicated to the terms of service so people may easily have questions answerered.

5. That someone who is clearly representative of Upwork participates in this and similar discussions, and that participants are strongly discouraged from misrepresenting themselves as acting with authority from Upwork (for example, by imposing a temporary ban on them posting).

6. That instead of agressively demanding that any thread participant supplies a 'solution' at the drop of a hat, participants in a discussion should be made to feel comfortable in requesting views, opinions and further information.

7. That while recognising sometimes it's useful to bring in other related matters, participants in any discussion be encouraged to focus on the matter under discussion.

[williamtcooper]

1. Terms are legal and can't be abridged.

2. The Terms are already properly linkeded - please review.

3. Use Google translate.

4. Read the Academy at the top of this page.

5. The moderators are continually viewing these threads.

6. The moderators view this.

7. Yes that is how the threads work,

Thanks for answering. Do you have anything to add to this thread as it pertains to the original question?

[kfarnell]

1. Yes they can.  The full terms of service remains unchanged and a simplified  guide to them does not affect their legality.

2. That sentence doesn't make sense so I'm unable to respond.

3. Google translate is often inaccurate. It depends on which languages are being used. Even when it's broadly correct, it misses nuances. But even if it's assumed to be accurate, the point is to make the information more accessible.

4. Why? I haven't indicated any personal problem in understanding and this makes no difference to my suggestion that there be a dedicated area clearly flagged as 'terms of service'.

5. That's different to participation and I was suggesting they do so continuously rather than continually. But as you're being obtuse, you claimed above that you participate in discussions because you have been asked to do so by Upwork. If you - or anyone else - is posting on that basis, it should be made clear. 

6. So they do, but that doesn't mean suggestions can be made in relation to forum posters.

7. That is how threads should work, but you have attempted to lead this one off-course a number of times above.

> Do you have anything to add to this thread as it pertains to the original question?

Maybe. Maybe not. I might. I might not. If I do, it might happen later or in five minutes. Or I might decide to have a nice cup of tea instead.

What won't make any difference to whether I post or not are solicitations worded like that. You are completely and utterly wasting your time in trying to bait me. 

[tlsanders]

1. Yes they can.  The full terms of service remains unchanged and a simplified  guide to them does not affect their legality.

This may not be true, as users are generally entitled to rely on information provided to them by the company. To a degree, this is already accomplished in the help sections, and my personal opinion is that some of those already have the potential to create legal problems for Upwork, since a user could in some cases follow what's on those pages and still run afoul of the actual TOS. 

[the-right-writer]

No, I never use Upwork. I have never spent hours pouring over all the information I don't spend time in the TOS, I never read the rules, suggestions, ideas, legal section, or anything else. I don't read any information outside of Upwork, either, no taxes, no quarterly reports, nothing. I have never made any money, here or elsewhere, have no skills, compared to those who made millions here, and basically am just not up to the level of some of those on the forum. Is that what you want to believe? Then believe it, I don't care. So, believe what you will. Be as irrelevant as you like, but you are certainly not going to stop my efforts to learn and help.

[williamtcooper]

Jeanne,

Please view your Profile - you rarely use the site other than the Community - I do give you credit for interacting in the Community - otherwise let's be serious.

If you want to help, what SOLUTIONS do you have that Upwork can consider for implementations.

[the-right-writer]

I guess you are unaware that you need not be logged in to read.

I'm not engaging in deflection. You have offered nothing helpful to the discussion. I'm seriously attempting to find some information and improve the system for those who are impacted. If you want to discuss the topic I started, I will be happy to do so.

[tlsanders]

I'm curious about why you have such a passionate focus on Upwork solving the problem of people who have chosen to operate independent businesses actively choosing not to educate themselves or employ any reasonable business practices? 

The ideal solution, of course, would be to remove them from the platform. But, Upwork won't do that because they're flinging connects around right and left. 

[25005175]

William, the fact that she only has 2 contracts initiated this year does not mean that she doesn't regularly use the site - although I grant you that it does suggest as much when combined with her top rating. It is realistic that she briefly reviews the marketplace for new jobs 1 - 3 times per week and finds almost none to which are worth replying, and that she is frequently not selected for the ones to which she DID apply, because her category is highly competitive and saturated.

[the-right-writer]

I have been saying for a long time that Upwork has few jobs that are worthy of application. I use the platform in many ways. I spend time on the jobs site, but there are no jobs there. Why would I act like a new and desperate freelancer and throw connects when there are no jobs worth applying for? I have also stated there are many ways to earn as a freelancer and the risks of having only one source of income. I have never trusted one source and never will. I'm not going to post my tax returns in some sort of silly competition.

The facts is there are fantastically skilled people who have objectives and goals that have nothing to do with a specific dollar amount earned.

If people read my posts, they would know I have only contracts with long-term clients because I am not finding jobs in my field that aren't scams, that are worthy of my time. I have to consider ROI. If you have work elsewhere, why stay here?

Why this concerns me is it is deflection. When people have no argument, no facts, and no way to defend their words, they resort to insults designed to engage the other person in a childish, back and forth, negative mess.

I am trying to have a real discussion, and I guess because I am not supporting a certain narrative (Yeah! Upwork! bunches of heart emojis) I am relegated to deflection. The topic I started has been purposely derailed in an intentional display. I don't care if someone doesn't like the discussion, stay on topic. Now, I have people contacting me privately because they are afraid to post. And what purpose has been served?

Obviously, some people do not like me, and this is not the first "conversation." But the post wasn't about ME; it was about helping OTHERS. It is frustrating when someone resorts to deflection and continues with zeal. If someone wants to debate me, that's cool. Childish attacks are not. People can start a "why Jeanne is (fill in the blank) thread" and post away. But why must they insert their deflection until they destroy the purpose of the post? I wanted to engage people who might not otherwise post and find some facts. The post was not harmful to others, and had some thoughtful replies. If you don't want to read my posts or replies, the adults amongst us, just skip on by. Why does that anger people so very much?

[tlsanders]

 If simply complaining that people become victims through their own actions doesn't actually change anything, you'd think a different approach should be considered, right?

Pointing out a problem and a solution to the person capable of acting on it NEVER changes anything. Something changes when the "victim" decides to act on the advice and stop putting themselves in a position to be victimized. 

Imagine that there is a huge problem on your street with people drag racing and creating a danger to neighorhood children. Would you tell your children to go ahead and play in the street because it shouldn't be their responsibility and if they were hit by a car and killed it was someone else's fault? Or would you keep them alive?

Sure, you're going to go to the city council and demand that they put a stop to it. But, in the meantime, will you refrain from warning your neighbors so they can keep their kids alive because the city council should have fixed it? 

[yofazza]

This...

Kids don't know about danger, they are "greedy", "negligent", and "lacking common sense". We find solutions, not blaming the kids.

Noobs are like kids, they didn't know, and they got scammed by script kiddies.

If a lot of people don't read ToS but results in "something bad", it's a problem that humans should find a solution for. Instead of constantly arresting, scolding, or blaming the victims, and forgetting who the actual criminals are. Unless, there are more important things in the priority list.

[tlsanders]

I came to that conclusion because I ALWAYS read the terms of service, and have also read them for a great many services I do not use because I'm an attorney and questions about them arise among my friends or in my Reddit sub. They are created solely to protect the interests of the business that paid to have them written and posts them, and very often that is to the detriment of the other party. That's true in the drafting of most contracts, since the attorney drafting them is charged with protecting the party they are writing the contract for. But, in the TOS context, there is no negotiation or attorney on the other side to raise the other person's interests. They are virtually always heavily stacked in favor of protecting the company. 

If you read the Upwork TOS, you will see several instances of this--in fact, we've seen several instances of it recently in the forums, when people who followed all the rules have reported being denied payment protection. The TOS say "Upwork's sole discretion," which means it doesn't actually matter whether you did anything wrong or not. 

Potentially, if they chose to exercise their sole discretion dishonestly often enough, many freelancers could band together and pursue a lawsuit for unfair business practices or some such (since it's virtually never worthwhile or financially viable for a freelancer to pursue that kind of action on their own over one incident). But no...Upwork covered that possibility by having you agree to waive your right to any collective or class action and to be bound by arbitration. You can opt out, but only if you read the TOS, understand the significance, and notify them in writing within 30 days of registration. Otherwise, the only viable means for enforcing many terms of the agreement and state and federal laws is cut off. 

Those are just two of many examples in the Upwork TOS, which are in keeping with the norm for most sites. 

[pgregory_indigo]

I do follow the terms of service, and I've read them to the best of my ability to understand intentionally obfuscated legalese, however, you missed an important option from your multiple-choice list.

G) Because they are meaningless and serve no purpose to protect either UpWork or the users of the service.

This is an important option to include, as UpWork does not comply with its own terms and conditions, so why would anyone believe that following the terms of service would provide any protection to the freelancer or anyone else using their service? As I've mentioned on "the other popular thread here", and was curiously completely ignored, with no response from UpWork or anyone else, it's like debating with a presuppositionalist, deflect and deny.

"Freelancer Membership Agreement"

"Upwork reserves the right to change membership fees, change the monthly number of Connects included in each membership program, change the price for Connects or institute new fees at any time, in each case upon reasonable notice posted in advance on the Site."

[c4e453ac]

---

Paul G wrote:

This is an important option to include, as UpWork does not comply with its own terms and conditions, so why would anyone believe that following the terms of service would provide any protection to the freelancer or anyone else using their service? As I've mentioned on "the other popular thread here", and was curiously completely ignored, with no response from UpWork or anyone else, it's like debating with a presuppositionalist, deflect and deny.

---

UW do not enforce their own ToS through their web scripts, which is trivial to do - literally a few lines of code.  This is egregiously negligent, given how simple it is to do.  Here's what should happen: if a "client" attempts to lure a freelancer to Telegram via a private message, that message is not sent, and if the "client" persists in trying to submit URLs of well-known scammer-hangouts (naked or obfuscated), they are suspended.  The message is never sent. Basic stuff. An ounce of prevention.

Curiously, I complained about email addresses appearing in so many jobs descriptions, asking freelancers to apply by email for jobs (it's laughable, isn't it?) ... within a few days of my posts, I no longer see jobs with email addresses published.  By the way, here's an example (Google search snippet) of a job posted on Upwork before they (apparently) have finally autofiltered email addresses in jobs descriptions.  It's very easy to prevent these jobs being posted. I now no longer see them.  Good job, UW - thank you for listening. 

[williamtcooper]

Andrew,

Agree that filtering for email addresses and websites is a great way to reduce spam posts.

When I managed my 25,000 page website, I would filter also. Everytime something got flagged it was added onto the filtered list until finally there was no more spam.

For a situation that it's not 100% spam, the message was sent to a folder for staff to read and determine to either delete or post.

In 2023 with the advent of more advanced AI and ML, it is very easy for the ML to create a binary Post or No Post condition and train the system based upon the data scientist providing the raw data for the ML training. Now the computer can make these decisions.

[celgins]

As I've mentioned on "the other popular thread here", and was curiously completely ignored, with no response from UpWork or anyone else, it's like debating with a presuppositionalist, deflect and deny.

First, your concerns about Connects fees and your belief that Upwork does not comply with its own Terms of Service with regards to Connects fees, is unrelated to this thread. Jeanne's post is a query for freelancers who have been scammed or almost scammed to determine why they are not following the Terms of Service. Her post has nothing to do with Connects fees.

But, if you must focus on a particular statement in the Freelancer Membership Agreement, maybe the reason you received no response from Upwork or anyone else, is because the statement you reference does not appear to apply technically or legally. If you break down the statement:

"Upwork reserves the right to change membership fees..."	Connects are not membership fees. Membership fees are monthly fees (e.g., Freelancer Plus). In fact, Upwork defines Membership Fees and Connects Fees separately in its documentation.
"...change the monthly number of Connects included in each membership program..."	Upwork did not change the number of Connects in its membership programs. As far as I know, Freelancer Basic is still 10 Connects per month and Freelancer Plus is 80 Connects.
"...change the price for Connects..."	The price for Connects has not changed; Connects still cost $0.15 (USD).
"...or institute new fees at any time."	Connects are not new fees; Connects have been around for quite some time.

What changed was clearly stated by Upwork Moderator Andrea in that other thread: "We’ve increased the amount of Connects needed to apply to certain jobs to better match the value of a job…”

With that, no portion of the Freelancer Membership Agreement statement you reference is technically applicable. I believe the reason it is not applicable is because freelancers are not necessarily required to buy Connects; you get 10 free Connects each month and can conceivably apply to jobs without ever purchasing Connects. I have never purchased Connects and many freelancers have never purchased them.

If there is a clause or section in the Freelancer Membership Agreement that states Upwork must notify its users before increasing the amount of Connects needed to apply to certain jobs, then your argument makes sense and Upwork could possibly be held accountable.

Oh, and this part: "...in each case upon reasonable notice posted in advance on the Site."

If the statement in question (in the Freelancer Membership Agreement) were applicable—even though it does not appear to be—I am sure Upwork and its legal team have a definition of "reasonable notice" that would likely squash any ideas of a rebellion or lawsuit. What we (freelancers and clients) might define as "in advance" is subjective, and I doubt Upwork will comment on their definition of "reasonable notice."

Upwork Moderator Andrea posted her message in that other thread less than an hour after the OP's message, which was posted approximately 20 minutes after freelancers first reported seeing 12-16 Connects for jobs. Her message constitutes the official notice.

Nevertheless, as I noted in the first paragraph, this thread is about scammed (or almost scammed) freelancers who fail to read and follow the Terms of Service, and I’m sure Jeanne would prefer it stay on-topic.

[pgregory_indigo]

I believe this is on topic, the question was why don't people follow the ToS, and my point is that if the ToS are proven to be worthless, that's a valid reason why people might not follow them alongside the other valid reasons already listed. 

You are correct in analysing the specific wording of that part of the agreement, however, in the Fees and ACH agreement, it states...

"Upwork reserves the right to change the fees of the memberships, features, services, and options offered on the Site, or institute new fees at any time, in each case upon reasonable notice posted in advance on the Site for existing Users."

I would argue that changing the number of connects required to submit a proposal is a change to the fees for services and options offered by the site, it may be a virtual currency, but it's backed by real currency, as the freely provided monthly connects are insufficient to apply for even a single job in my field and therefore operating the services of the site requires payment to purchase connects, so it qualifies as a fee.

---

Clark S wrote:

Upwork Moderator Andrea posted her message in that other thread less than an hour after the OP's message, which was posted approximately 20 minutes after freelancers first reported seeing 12-16 Connects for jobs. Her message constitutes the official notice.

Errrm, you do know what "in advance" means, right? As in, it's not "20 minutes after", right? Or am I misinterpreting the dictionary definition? The current OED says...

adjective

1. done, sent, or supplied beforehand.

   "advance notice"

Anyway, my point is, a valid reason people might not read or adhere to the ToS is that they perceive them as being meaningless and untrustworthy, if you don't trust the honesty of the source, why would you follow their guidelines, which is a valid response to the original question, and hence, on topic.

[celgins]

I would argue that changing the number of connects required to submit a proposal is a change to the fees for services and options offered by the site, it may be a virtual currency, but it's backed by real currency, as the freely provided monthly connects are insufficient to apply for even a single job in my field and therefore operating the services of the site requires payment to purchase connects, so it qualifies as a fee.

Maybe this would be a good argument if fees changed across the board. There are still varying amounts of Connects required to apply to jobs, and Freelancer Basic still offers 10 free Connects. The free Connects may be insufficient for some niches, but not others.

Errrm, you do know what "in advance" means, right? As in, it's not "20 minutes after", right? Or am I misinterpreting the dictionary definition?

Yes, I know what it means, which is why I mentioned Upwork and its legal team's definition of "advanced notice" and "reasonable notice." Upwork's definition is what matters--not my definition or the dictionary's. From a contractual standpoint, I would not be first in line to pursue a legal entanglement with Upwork based on a 20 minute time difference.

Either way, I certainly do not believe the reason freelancers fail to read or adhere to the ToS is because they think it is meaningless or untrustworthy. My guess is, most do not read the ToS because they do not care to.

[pgregory_indigo]

---

Clark S wrote:

Maybe this would be a good argument if fees changed across the board. There are still varying amounts of Connects required to apply to jobs, and Freelancer Basic still offers 10 free Connects. The free Connects may be insufficient for some niches, but not others.

You can't randomly choose to whom the rules apply, they apply across the board. If any of the users of the platform have no choice but to purchase connects due to the minimum cost per proposal being beyond the free tier, then the terms of service have to apply to those people as much as those who are able to submit one or two proposals per month with the free connects, so the point stands, it is a fee, maybe not a fee that applies to all users, but a fee nonetheless.

Yes, I know what it means, which is why I mentioned Upwork and its legal team's definition of "advanced notice" and "reasonable notice." Upwork's definition is what matters--not my definition or the dictionary's. From a contractual standpoint, I would not be first in line to pursue a legal entanglement with Upwork based on a 20 minute time difference.

Oh, so the standard use of language doesn't apply? Advance means before, not after, not "just a little tiny bit after", but before, and "reasonable" would not be determined by any sane person to actually mean negative. If the dictionary definition of words doesn't matter, only what UpWork defines, why don't they just write their ToS in Klingon? That's the weirdest thing I've heard on these forums, and I've heard some weird stuff, "the dictionary's definition doesn't matter", as Deadpool would say "What the actual F..."!

Either way, I certainly do not believe the reason freelancers fail to read or adhere to the ToS is because they think it is meaningless or untrustworthy. My guess is, most do not read the ToS because they do not care to.

---

I understand that this is your belief, but the purpose, as I understood it, of this thread was to get empirical evidence of why people don't adhere to the ToS, not your "feeling" or guess. Under that assumption, adding the possibility that people don't find UpWork and its ToS to be trustworthy and therefore does not warrant close examination, is a valid response to the question. It might not be a sound reason, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reason some might have considered. If a business has demonstrated that they are not willing to adhere to their own terms, that could feed into a decision as to whether it's worth the time of reading terms that likely won't be upheld. Sure, the best course of action in that situation is to not sign up for the service at all if you don't trust UpWork, but that's not the question being asked here, the question is why don't some people read and adopt the ToS.

[tlsanders]

G) Because they are meaningless and serve no purpose to protect either UpWork or the users of the service.

This is false, and (once again) seems directly intended to harm less experienced freelancers. A substantial portion of the scams Upwork freelancers fall victim to would be completely avoided if they learned just a few basics, such as not to communicate outside the platform without a contract and not to work without a contract and escrow or verified payment for hourly. And, a lot of freak outs and unnecessary conflicts with clients could be avoided if freelancers had read how payment works for each type of contract. Freelancers who could have been covered by payment protection but weren't because they didn't jump through a hoop in the TOS (like memos) would also have been helped. Just a few of the most obvious examples.

[pgregory_indigo]

True to form, you skipped the majority of my comment. To attempt to clarify, the point I was making was not that the content of the ToS itself is worthless, but that the behaviour of UpWork has demonstrated that the ToS would not be upheld, as they have shown that they don't adhere to the terms themselves. Thus rendering the ToS worthless. Offering any sort of protection in a terms document, and then ignoring that terms document when it suits, gives zero confidence in that protection.

[tlsanders]

Yes, I see your attempted obfuscation. 

I won't be responding to you again because I don't want to help build the foundation for your relentless, malicious attempts to undermine and destroy newer freelancers. 

[AndreaG · Accepted solution]

Hi all,

While we'll continue to allow criticism, posts that come without constructive feedback or are disparaging of other members won't be allowed. Forums, like the Community, are at their best when participants treat each other with respect and courtesy.

We appreciate your participation, so please consider this in your future replies.

[a9b5904a]

This website was never even supposed to be up on air yet ,my humble apologies, it has been taken off though, but I was unaware of this issue/complaint 

[fe9b8d82]

Unfortunately all I've gotten from this thread is that one or two people can completely destroy what would have otherwise been a useful and informative discussion for new freelancers to read.

People like Jeanne, Tiffany, Clark, and others offer useful, nuanced advice and the usual suspects come along to dismiss it, or worse, personally insult them.

Why does disagreeing on a concept have to turn into condescending, personal attacks from a few of the members here?  You're supposed to be professionals, so please, conduct yourselves as such.

[tlsanders]

I have a theory on this, which will probably be perceived as an attack by some but is my honest observation. Some people--and I've noticed this across a couple of decades of working with a wide variety of newer freelancers--are deeply invested in believing someone else is responsible for their success or failure. It may not even be conscious, but it seems to arise out of a fear. If what I and others are saying is true, they are responsible for their own businesses and succeed or fail on their own merits. 

This runs so deep in some that the will endlessly argue against any advice they are offered, as if they've lost sight of the actual goal and the goal is now being right about the deck being stacked against them. I feel bad for people who live that way, but worse for the newcomers they overwhelm with their gloom and doom.

[fe9b8d82]

Well said!

[elisa_b]

We-all-know-who successfully managed to hijack the discussion, scaring away people who could have given their honest opinion instead.

I noticed that the vast majority of people participating in this thread are from the US and UK, whereas it would have been nice to hear more opinions from non-native English speakers.

Being one of them, my reply to Jeanne's initial questions would be that the language barrier is a big obstacle for many freelancers. Even if you understand English to a good level, sometimes the way that ToS are written leaves you puzzled, to the point you have to read the same sentence 3 or 4 times. I cannot even imagine the troubles faced by those with limited knowledge of English. 

And NO: machine / AI translation services could make things even worse, because they could misunderstand the source text too.

Therefore it would not be a bad idea to have the ToS translated into other main languages too (knowing, of course, that Upwork could not care less about this and will never do it).

[celgins]

I agree. The language barrier for non-native English speakers can be challenging. Toss in a bunch of legalese and I think it gets even harder.

It is a bit odd to me that a corporation with a platform hosting freelancers and clients from almost every corner of the globe does not translate some its most important documents (Terms of Service) into multiple languages. Then again, Upwork does a lot of "odd" things.

[f3d9daaf]

Interesting case here:
I follow all Terms and Conditions. Then suddenly the client drifts into an area that is clearly against the rules of UpWork.

I report it. Guess what happens .... The contract will be on hold. And the payments for the freelancer will be reversed to the client.
Nice loophole here for clients. If you don't want to pay your freelancer just break the Terms of Service.
Any advice how a freelancer can protect himself from such scamming practices?

[25005175]

So, this thread is dominated by my-prediction-vs-your-prediction debates, when it should be a collection of anecdotes by people who did not read or only partially read the ToS. In the 3 pages of comments, I've seen - at most - 4 answers from people who did not read the ToS (or read updates to ToS), about why they did not read the ToS.

[celgins]

Yes, and I was hoping to review several reasons why some freelancers who were scammed or almost scammed, did not read or abide by the ToS.

The scary part is, for every 10 freelancers who post messages after getting scammed or those who post messages when they suspect they are about to be scammed, there are probably another 1,000 freelancers who are too ashamed or too embarrassed to admit to being scammed—especially if they lost a lot of money.