Apr 24, 2019 01:50:41 PM by Natalie S
Intrigued about the possible responses I'll get here.
The situation: Started a job with a client. It was almost a year ago. There were five milestones, each over the course of a month. Each time I completed a milestone, I sent it to the client, but she didn't respond. She never approved a milestone, always just let the 14 days lapse for payment, and then activated the next one. When activating the next one she would always say something like 'thanks, here's the next one'. She's very nice by the way, just not much interaction. Fine by me!
Five months go by, each milestone is completed, 14 days lapse, and so on. At the end, I asked if she needed something else, no response of course, and eventually I closed the job. She didn't leave a review, of course!
Now, three/four months later, she would like edits to each piece. This will take a long time, because her needs have changed (these aren't edits due to my incorrectness on the original pieces). Well, she had 14 days between each milestone to request that, and now I'm slammed with other paying clients, slotting that in is going to be a challenge.
Note, I'm not asking for advice on what I should do, but what would YOU do in this situation, and why? I am in two minds, and since the job is long closed (and I don't expect to work for her again) there are no implications for either doing the edits or not doing them.
Apr 24, 2019 01:56:40 PM by Tiffany S
That depends on the situation. I might apologize, but say that the window for revisions had long passed and my schedule was fully booked. Or, I might say that I would be happy to make changes to bring the pieces in line with her revised goals at a rate of whatever is appropriate, and that I would need her to create a new contract and escrow payment for all five pieces before I started.
Apr 24, 2019 02:12:35 PM by Alma I
Natalie, customer have 14 days to review work according to Upwork T&C. Then they have another week or so to raise a dispute if they're unhappy before the money is released to the freelancer. In these conditions, I would only make changes if the customer is a strategic one, i.e. they brought excellent business in the past and I expect them to bring more excellent business in the future. None of these situations apply to you. You can offer to make the changes in exchange for a suitable fee since Upwork's T&C forbid you from performing free work and the customer from requesting it.
Apr 24, 2019 02:42:00 PM by Natalie S
Apr 24, 2019 02:53:34 PM by Kholleras I
I would ask the client to open a new contract and pay me for the work if the pay was worth it and I had the time to take on new work and enough recent/current contracts to buffer my JSS against the potential lack of feedback. If I wasn't concerned about possibly upsetting the client, I might even mention the lack of feedback.
Apr 24, 2019 11:18:15 PM Edited Apr 24, 2019 11:21:37 PM by Petra R
Heaven H wrote:.... and enough recent/current contracts to buffer my JSS against the potential lack of feedback.
There is no need to "buffer the JSS against lack of feedback."
Lack of feedback does absolutely nothing to the JSS unless it is accompanied by lack of payment (ever) or there is a large percentage of such contracts, which does not apply to Nathalie.
Apr 26, 2019 12:16:45 PM by Anonymous-User A
Apr 24, 2019 02:17:26 PM by Jennifer M
I would probably tell her to tell me what she wants and open an hourly contract to protect myself from any shenanigans.
Apr 24, 2019 03:04:40 PM Edited Apr 24, 2019 03:05:41 PM by Isabelle Anne A
Wouldn't take another chance on her, unless the money's ridiculously good. A lack of communication like that is a dodgy sign, and her no-feedback contract wouldn't have done your profile any favors.
You haven't mentioned whether she's planning to pay for these edits, which it doesn't sound like she is. In any case, she might leave you bad feedback this time, so wouldn't risk it. (I'm saying "you" but these are all thoughts that would stop me from working with her again.)
Edited: just saw that you mentioned "free" edits in the post title. Well, in that case, it's a HECK NO.
Apr 25, 2019 12:34:32 AM by Alexander N
I would just explain her how Upwork works. There isn't anything she could do against you anyway.
Apr 25, 2019 06:53:39 AM Edited Apr 25, 2019 06:54:41 AM by Douglas Michael M
Alexander N wrote:I would just explain her how Upwork works. There isn't anything she could do against you anyway.
I do my best to keep Upwork and its policies and practices out of any conversations with a client. The work contract is between me and the client. Upwork—despite its best and worst efforts—is not a party to that contract, but a service that offers conveniences to both the client and me. Remote freelancing can present challenges with even the best of clients. Why complicate the narrative?
Apr 25, 2019 06:21:36 AM by Phyllis G
Hi, Natalie!
No free edits after a project is closed unless I really like a client and expect they'll continue to hire me on lucrative contracts. In this case, I'd tell the cient a new contract is required for further work on this project. I'd be clear that my calendar is pretty full and set a reasonable expectation about turnaround time. (I've found clients who go dark and then suddenly reappear with more to do, are often the worst about expecting me to respond instantly, as if I have nothing else going on.) And in quoting a fee, I'd take into account that she is unlikely to suddenly turn into a chatterbox, which could make it very challenging to get enough input from her to satisfy her on the edits.
She's not going to leave fb this time, either (unless, perhaps, she gets mad). But money is always good, and if I thought she'd give me enough input to do a good job on her edits, I'd give her the opp'ty to pay me to do it.
Apr 25, 2019 08:33:29 AM by Michelle S
I would say no. After so long, with so many content edits, it is a new project. I also would not want to work with client again, so I would likely just tell them I could not take on any extra work at this time or in the foreseeable future. Part of being a freelancer is the freedom and autonomy to choose your clients. The fact she is asking for free work makes her a not-so-great client who does not respect your time or expertise.
Apr 26, 2019 08:12:52 AM by Natalie S
Apr 26, 2019 09:03:48 AM Edited Apr 26, 2019 09:04:16 AM by Preston H
re: "she has offered to pay for a new contract now, but she is not a great client so I think it’s a no from me"
Sometimes a client makes some mistakes, and burns bridges, and loses the opportunity to work with a preferred freelancer.
The client may need to step back, see what she can do to improve and become more professional, and hire new people.
Working effectively as a client may mean learning new skills and techniques, similar to becoming successful as a freelancer.
Apr 26, 2019 09:47:03 AM by Rene K
Natalie S wrote:
(BTW: she has offered to pay for a new contract now, but she is not a great client so I think it’s a no from me).
I don't know. Obviously, everyone is free to work or no to work with a client based on his or her feelings, but maybe you are punishing this client for something that is not actually a big deal.
For sure, a poor communication is not the most satisfactory way to conduct business, but some people are overbooked or have other priorities.
She bought you some content that was paid for. She now comes back with additional needs and is happy to pay for this. What's wrong with this. No feedback? As Petra wrote, not a big deal at all as soon as money flows. If she was unhappy with your work, she would have said so and wouldn't come back for more. She's paying and she's happy with your work, why not take this new contract?
Apr 26, 2019 12:06:44 PM by Natalie S
Apr 26, 2019 03:26:59 PM by Kathy T
I agree with what Rene said. IMO I think this client is a good client. Ok, she didn't close the contract and didn't release escrow right away, but she funded escrow, and that was it. There were no endless revisions no edits, no endless modifications and no "this is not what I want."
You didn't have to deal with that. You did the work, yes you had to wait 14 days, but you got paid. She must have been happy with what you delivered to you, otherwise she would not have contacted you again. And now she counts as a repeat client.
The only thing I would suggest to you would be would be either have a fixed rate contract with FULL payment for the entire job funded. That way you won't have to wait 14 days between each milestone. (but then again, those 14 days might give you a chance to work with your other clients.)
Or
To have an hourly contract.
Apr 26, 2019 01:08:15 PM by Isabelle Anne A
Rene K wrote:
Natalie S wrote:
(BTW: she has offered to pay for a new contract now, but she is not a great client so I think it’s a no from me).I don't know. Obviously, everyone is free to work or no to work with a client based on his or her feelings, but maybe you are punishing this client for something that is not actually a big deal.
For sure, a poor communication is not the most satisfactory way to conduct business, but some people are overbooked or have other priorities.
She bought you some content that was paid for. She now comes back with additional needs and is happy to pay for this. What's wrong with this. No feedback? As Petra wrote, not a big deal at all as soon as money flows. If she was unhappy with your work, she would have said so and wouldn't come back for more. She's paying and she's happy with your work, why not take this new contract?
Have to disagree. RUN.
Apr 30, 2019 06:14:16 AM by Natalie S
Update on this - in the end I decided to say 'no' for many of the reasons we all discussed above. Client's response was to request a refund! Four months after the end of the job. Glad I trusted my instincts!
Apr 30, 2019 08:33:54 AM by Phyllis G
Natalie S wrote:Update on this - in the end I decided to say 'no' for many of the reasons we all discussed above. Client's response was to request a refund! Four months after the end of the job. Glad I trusted my instincts!
You called it right--she's bonkers!
May 1, 2019 06:55:38 AM by Natalie S
Weird - Upwork mediation specialist is now involved in this even though the job is long finished. I thought that wasn't possible? There are no funds in escrow so this seems weird to me.
May 1, 2019 06:58:06 AM by Alexander N
No worries, there is a 30 days deadline, they can't do anything to you anymore.
May 1, 2019 07:45:01 AM by Petra R
Natalie S wrote:Weird - Upwork mediation specialist is now involved in this even though the job is long finished. I thought that wasn't possible? There are no funds in escrow so this seems weird to me.
Was the last payment made over 30 days ago?
May 1, 2019 09:44:49 AM by Natalie S
Yep. The Upwork support person has written that the client has 60-90 days after the job has ended to start mediation, which seems new! She also writes that it is to "prevent legals proceedings for freelancers and charge backs on their payments". This seems very weird to me. Anyhoo, I'm not worried, its just interesting/weird!
May 1, 2019 09:55:52 AM Edited May 1, 2019 10:05:10 AM by Petra R
Natalie S wrote:Yep. The Upwork support person has written that the client has 60-90 days after the job has ended to start mediation, which seems new!
Wow what?
First it was 14 days, then it was 30 days, now it is 60 to 90 days?
UPWORK?????????????????? WAY TO KEEP CHANGING THE GOALPOST WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE?????????? UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!
I am flagging my post because I sure as hell want an official answer if this is true and if yes, why this is being sneaked in?
Why not just let clients keep their money in the first place?
And what the (insert some very rude words) is meant by "60 to 90 days" - what is it? 60 days? 90 days?
Seems this new way to screw freelancers over for 2 or 3 months hasn't made it as far as the help pages
Even that wording is (true to form) problematic, as that would strictly speaking mean that a contract that has been running for 5 years with 99 milestones could be disputed in its entirety, (all 99 milestones) as long asthe last payment was in the last 30 days.
And where does the mediator's "after the contract ended" nonsense come into it?
UPWORK?????
May 1, 2019 10:04:52 AM by Natalie S
Bumping Petra's post. I'd like an answer too (although I have asked directly). To be clear - I cannot possibly see what the client can get out of this since there are no funds in escrow to argue over. However, I was disturbed to read that part about card chargebacks.
May 1, 2019 10:10:04 AM Edited May 1, 2019 10:17:10 AM by Petra R
Natalie S wrote:Bumping Petra's post. I'd like an answer too (although I have asked directly). To be clear - I cannot possibly see what the client can get out of this since there are no funds in escrow to argue over.
Well, the client (as far as we were told over and over again) can request dispute assistance within 30 days of last payment. If nothing is agreed in mediation, there is arbitration. Whether money is in Escrow or not is irrelevant, they can make you go to arbitration (at $ 291) even if nothing is in Escrow. If you refuse arbitration you have to refund (or lose your account)
Now 60 to 90 days of contract ending?
Natalie S wrote:However, I was disturbed to read that part about card chargebacks.
Then it's all bets off. The client is suspended, and they take the money back from you.
May 1, 2019 10:35:36 AM by Valeria K
Hi Petra and Natalie,
Please, refer to my answer marked as solution on this older thread. It applies to Natalie's situation and I'm quoting it below:
Valeria K. wrote:
Upwork dispute team provides mediation assistance after 30 days (of the last payment/milestone released) to help resolve client and freelancer conflicts. However, it isn't eligible for legal arbitration. This is a courtesy we provide to users who are having issues with their contracts. It is important that freelancers work to ensure client satisfaction with their work because it impacts a freelancer's long term success on the platform.
May 1, 2019 10:43:12 AM by Alexander N
So basically, the idea is that after 30 but before 90 days, the mediation team might look into situation, but will not do any forcible actions to the freelancer like have him refund the money, or block his account, or lower his JSS. Just see who was right or wrong and give advice, but it's a done deal anyway. Right?
May 1, 2019 11:45:44 AM by Natalie S
Alexander N wrote:So basically, the idea is that after 30 but before 90 days, the mediation team might look into situation, but will not do any forcible actions to the freelancer like have him refund the money, or block his account, or lower his JSS. Just see who was right or wrong and give advice, but it's a done deal anyway. Right?
Seems that way. Pointless waste of my time, I think. And, the client's too!
Seems
May 1, 2019 11:05:34 AM Edited May 1, 2019 11:06:34 AM by Petra R
Valeria K wrote:Hi Petra and Natalie,
Please, refer to my answer marked as solution on this older thread. It applies to Natalie's situation and I'm quoting it below:
Valeria K. wrote:
Upwork dispute team provides mediation assistance after 30 days (of the last payment/milestone released) to help resolve client and freelancer conflicts. However, it isn't eligible for legal arbitration
Thanks Val, So essentially Natalie can simply say "Sorry, no refund" repeatedly and the whole thing will go away?
May 1, 2019 12:20:29 PM by Shahid M
Tell the client that you are too busy.
You are not available for work for the next few months.
nothing else,
and block him.
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