Ok here's an example of a work diary:
Since I don't know the exact time I started let's guess, going by the activity bar that it was 11:38 am. I finished exactly 90 minutes later at 1:08pm (pressed stop on the time tracker when it said 1 hr 30 minutes).
What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.
The largest gap I see in the screenshots is 17 minutes - do you mean this instead of 27? This change would not effect how a client reviews my work using the screenshots. It would just give a far more accurate summary of how much time was actually logged. By all means round up to the nearest 10 mins at the end of the work week, but not for every instance of time tracked.
Community Manager
@Jan H wrote:
What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.
Hi Jan,
Please note that you can select and delete the first screenshot from your example, removing it from the Work Diary and not billing your client for it. Also, since the activity is really low, in case a clients initiates a dispute this segment wouldn't qualify for Hourly Payment Protection.
To avoid any confusion since clients are also strongly advised to review the Work Diary regularly, you can follow the steps many experienced freelancers working on Hourly jobs use and review and remove segments like the one you highlighted at the end of each session or the end of the day/week.
@Jan H wrote:Ok here's an example of a work diary:
Since I don't know the exact time I started let's guess, going by the activity bar that it was 11:38 am. I finished exactly 90 minutes later at 1:08pm (pressed stop on the time tracker when it said 1 hr 30 minutes).
What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.
The largest gap I see in the screenshots is 17 minutes - do you mean this instead of 27? This change would not effect how a client reviews my work using the screenshots. It would just give a far more accurate summary of how much time was actually logged. By all means round up to the nearest 10 mins at the end of the work week, but not for every instance of time tracked.
No, I didn't mean 17, because I wasn't referring to a gap between two screenshots. I was referring to the gap between GOOD screenshots, if there was a stray Candy Crush shot in the middle segment. Say, good screenshot at 8:01, Candy Crush at 8:13, good screenshot at 8:29. You have a 28 minute period during which the only screenshot showing is Candy Crush. In the current system, the client (or Upwork, if payment protection is implicated) can neatly deduct that 10-minute segment. For the third time, how would you suggest that they use the screenshots in your scenario, where bill was simply from, say, 7:55-8:35 with no blocking and no additional screenshots?
Community Manager
@Isabelle Anne A wrote:
I understand the point Jan is making.
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?
It's not like Upwork's time tracker takes screenshots every 10 minutes anyway - sometimes it's completely random in the middle of a 10-minute segment and sometimes 15+ minutes can pass before another screenshot is taken.
This is why I'll repeat: the only reason I feel Upwork keeps the 10-minute tracker is because it gets more money from clients that way. Not all freelancers diligently go through their work diaries and delete low-activity segments, and Upwork profits from that if the client doesn't dispute those segments.
That's why I'm really looking for an explanation from a developer or someone who can explain why a minute tracker is difficult to implement.
Apart from the "cheating clients" aspect of this, it's unecessary time wasted for us to have to constantly monitor our work diaries for this. And I, like Pandora, ocassionally end up undercharging clients because of this.
Hi Isabelle,
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?
Elance tracker took screenshots randomly within 12 minutes segments and used the same method of billing time as used on Upwork.
This is why I'll repeat: the only reason I feel Upwork keeps the 10-minute tracker is because it gets more money from clients that way. Not all freelancers diligently go through their work diaries and delete low-activity segments, and Upwork profits from that if the client doesn't dispute those segments.
Apart from the "cheating clients" aspect of this, it's unecessary time wasted for us to have to constantly monitor our work diaries for this. And I, like Pandora, ocassionally end up undercharging clients because of this.
We've disagreed with statements like these before on discussion threads you participated in, please see one of our replies copied below.
That's why I'm really looking for an explanation from a developer or someone who can explain why a minute tracker is difficult to implement.
Here's one of ouir earlier comments on the same topic:
Some of you have proposed tracking billable time by the minute while still allowing for randomized 10-minute screenshots. We’ve explored this possibility, but as of now have no plans to make this change. Here’s why: in order for your time to be “billable”, there needs to be a random screenshot and user activity.
If you were tracking time by the minute, and later decided to remove a screenshot because you were idle, forgot to turn off the Team App, etc. you would be removing that time as a 10-minute increment. So, even if you were only idle for 30 seconds, you’d be missing out on the 9:30 that you were working. This can quickly add up to you “charging less” time for your work. We don’t want that.
We understand the confusion this can cause. However, we have seen that the Team App accurately measures activity and time spent working. We’ll continue to evaluate this and other suggestions, so keep them coming.
Thanks!
Community Manager
Hi Isabelle Anne,
A screenshot captures freelancer's screen and shows what they are working on each segment, the work activity levels are reflecting. This allows clients to check if the activity levels are referring to an activity related to their job, and prevent them from being billed for an unrelated activity. Without screenshots clients wouldn't have this insight, just based on the activity levels.
The same issue discussed here would also occur with a five-minute segment and I would presume freelancers wouldn't be on board if screenshots were taken each minute, which would also create other difficulties and inconvenience with this process.
Isabelle Anne, Ines and others,
We'll be sharing feedback you provided on this thread with the team. However, we can't promise any changes to the way time-tracking, billing, reporting and Protection work on Hourly contracts in the near future.
Thanks.
