Feedback requested on using 1 milestone due upon job completion, plus an escrow firm question

[9d6dfbcc]

Since one of my jobs will be large (15-20k area) and technical (with some unique knowledge needed by coder) I strongly prefer not paying more than 1 milestone and only due upon job completion. That job originally was 15k and some freelancers wanted several large milestones which I do not agree to.

To make just 1 large milestome more appealing I am also proposing increasing job to 20k as additional compensation involving 1 milestone and due upon completion. I can pay entire 20k into escrow in advance to again make job more attractive. Does that sound reasonable?

Also, I have a very well established acconut at EscrowDotCom for many years and know how they operate. Is there a way we can use them instead of Upwork escrow?  P.S. I think I have read about Payoneer escrow being used somehere on Upwork but not sure about that. Is it correct? 

[9d6dfbcc]

 @David G -- Wow, I'm pretty confident stating that is the most unprofessional thing I have ever seen in this forum. I expect a moderator will come along soon. Meanwhile...

Saying what? The above which is not deleted by a mod or are you referring to the community guideline deletion? If you are, I never said that.it was said by a client about Prashant, not by me, so are you wrongly thinking I said it? If so, why?

If you are talking about the area which was not deleted by a mod why is that so unprofessional to say when I am stating what Plashant said about me during his personal attack is not correct and falsifications. Why would that be unrpofessional to say? Please clarify Phyllis. . 

[gilbert-phyllis]

What's unprofessional about your comments? If you really have to ask, then I don't know where to begin.

I agree with others that Prashant was not attacking you personally. You came here "requesting feedback", did not hear what you wanted to hear, and responded by arguing and becoming somewhat adversarial in your comments. As Petra noted below, it's hard to understand what you're trying to accomplish here.

[petra_r]

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David G wrote: I may have to leave Upwork over this issue and ask for refunds of the $60 I pre-paid for 2 talent specialists to find good coders, which has given me zero value thus far.

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 The "talent specialists" actually cost money now?

[claudiacezy]

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@David G wrote:

To make just 1 large milestome more appealing I am also proposing increasing job to 20k as additional compensation involving 1 milestone and due upon completion. I can pay entire 20k into escrow in advance to again make job more attractive. Does that sound reasonable?

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 It doesn't sound reasonable if the job can't be completed within 90 days. The funds can stay in the Upwork Escrow for a limited period. If the funds are not released to the freelancer within 90 days, then the escrow funds are returned to the client.

[reinierb]

I fail to see the OP's problem...

Why not simply set up an hourly contract, and limit the number of hours the coder can work in say, a week? This way, both the coder and the client are protected, provided the coder follows the prescripts of the payment protection plan, and the OP gets to test/approve parts of the project without having to lay out a huge sum of money upfront. 

Simple, really...

[wendy_writes]

If I'm not mistaken, most IT developers, coders, etc. work hourly as Reinier mentioned. IT work is far and away the genre most suitable for hourly work.

David, have you used hourly contracts? 

[9d6dfbcc]

No I have not considered hourly contracts because how in the world could I know if the FL is actually working on my job during the stated hours. Am I missing something?

P.S. Wendy, I am still waiting for an explanation why you said in another post Prashant was not attacking me in view of the fact he clearly was attacking, making your defense of him confusing..

[reinierb]

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@David G wrote:

No I have not considered hourly contracts because how in the world could I know if the FL is actually working on my job during the stated hours. Am I missing something?

The time tracking software does two things- 

1) It takes screenshots of the coder's screen so you can see what is being worked on

2) It records stuff like key strokes, scroll actions, and mouse clicks. These  have to be above a specified level to fall under the payment protection plan

So, if you limit the hours the coder can work in any given week, you have a review period to test/review the work done in those hours. Based on screenshots and activity levels (that you can see), you can dispute any hours you deem not to have been spent on your project.   

I am sure other contractors who regularly do hourly jobs could give you more detailed information, but as others have stated in this thread, you will never find an experienced coder that will accept your fixed-price terms. 

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[9d6dfbcc]

Was not aware of that. How and when are payments made to the FL?

It sounds like an excellent way to do it hourly and I will investigate using it for low priced jobs in the future. However, I don't think it would work well on a 20k job especially since I would not know until near end or at job end time if FL has the needed high skills to complete job to my satisfaction. What happens If it turns-out he did not finish hourly project for whatever reason?

[petra_r]

David, with all due respect, I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with this thread.

You appear to be innately distrustful and suspicious and convinced that freelancers are on platforms with the main purpose of ripping off defenseless clients.

That is not an attitude on which you will be able to build a successful, productive, trusting relationship with a partner (The best clients and the best freelancers tend to think of their relationship as a partnership that has a common goal: To get the job done!)

Under the circumstances I would say hiring online is not for you. It would likely result in a frustrating experience for both sides, you and the freelancer.

[reinierb]

Yep, sometimes you just gotta trust people. 

[9d6dfbcc]

Thanks for your opinion. It's not a matter of trust as I am sure most here are very trustworthy. The entire issue is if for some odd reason FL does not finish job (i.e. turns out near end of project some important aspects were beyond FL skill level, or the FL goes out of business, or even gets hit by a truck) but I already paid 2 of 3 milestones (more than 10k) how do I get a refund because all i will have is non-functioning worthless code not working to my specificaions? THAT IS THE ISSUE.

[9d6dfbcc]

"You appear to be innately distrustful and suspicious and convinced that freelancers are on platforms with the main purpose of ripping off defenseless clients."

That is NOT CORRECT. The issue has absolutely nothing to do with trust or suspicion. I really do not understand why Petra and others are saying that.

[tlsanders]

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@Reinier B wrote:

I fail to see the OP's problem...

Why not simply set up an hourly contract, and limit the number of hours the coder can work in say, a week? This way, both the coder and the client are protected, provided the coder follows the prescripts of the payment protection plan, and the OP gets to test/approve parts of the project without having to lay out a huge sum of money upfront. 

Simple, really...

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 Because he wants to make sure that he pays absolutely nothing if the project isn't completed 100%. He's saying--I have no idea whether this is accurate, since I'm not a technical person--that a freelancer completing 2/3 of the project provides zero value to him.

[9d6dfbcc]

That is not relevant as I would not anticpate the job lasting 90 days. Maybe 30-60.

[bobafett999]

David:

I will help you out.  Many in the thread have said it, but I just got my daily dose of Quara feed and this question was asked," How does a business person outsource a good developer/programmer/engineer on eLance or oDesk? I don'...

programming languages. What skill sets should I be looking for?"

If you have no prior experience in software development  you will definitely have difficulty navigating through Elance or oDesk. These are large marketplaces of software engineers, and even the most seasoned CTOs have trouble finding talent.

Before you begin the search, you may want to seek help from a software consultant to come up with a detailed framework before posting your ad. This will be help you be as clear-cut as possible about the expectations/technical details you are looking for. Also, if you're crunched for time and have a limited budget (hence, why you initially thought these sites would work for you), take into consideration that you may have to undergo some trial and error, and you may end up spending more time and money than you had anticipated.
Some good pointers…

Be proactive; respond quickly and post more than one ad for the same project. The more applicants you receive, the closer you will be to finding the best person for the job. If you’re having trouble narrowing it down, go through the applicants with a software consultant. They will help you weed out and interview applicants.

Also, always remember that skilled developers want to work with a client with great communication skills. If you are lackadaisical about responding, you’re going to attract the same type of developer.

If  you’re still unsure, give them a test-run by creating a much smaller project. This will give you a chance to see if they’re worth hiring for the real job. Look for bug-free software, timeliness, efficient communication, and professionalism.

I wouldn't put too much hope of attracting a good talent who will take you up on your offer.  Skilled developers are smart not stupid.

Remember your idea attracted zero positive response in your favor on this thread.

[9d6dfbcc]

"Remember your idea attracted zero positive response in your favor on this thread."

Is it possible a reason for that is because it appears most replies are from freelancers and not from clients, with the FL's of course biased? .A reason I am posting here and not on FL forum is I assumed this was frequented mostly by clients who would likely feel the same way I do but they are not here from what I can see. 

The main issue is not my thinking most freelancers are not honest or trustworthy as I am sure they are, and most are I am sure also skilled. The real issue is if milestones are used the FL is more of less assured of getting anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of project cost using my 3-milestone example.

That cannot be refunded regardless of job never being finished to client full satisfactiuon. Thus, the client is assured of losing 1/3 to 2/3 or even more if not completed to full satisfaction however FL has considerable funds from the milestones. That is the issue.

It's simply NOT a level playing field. How can it be considered fair when client risks lots of cash but coder cannot be required to refund money upon non-perforamnce. The only change I can think of is changing Upwork business model so TOS says FL must provide refunds of all milestones if client is not satisfied with finished job.

That's the way escrow.com works. For example, if you buy a domain name via escrow.com they will not release any funds to seller unless buyer says OK. I am sure there would be far more employers here if that was the rule. Escrow should not be judge and jury, and should only release funds with clients authorization. Anything else means it's not a true escrow.

[bobafett999]

Well actually responses from freelancers is a better indicator.  I bet there is not a freelancer on this platform or any other platform who is not burned by buyers in one way or other with fixed price contract even when they were milestone based.

[9d6dfbcc]

"Remember your idea attracted zero positive response in your favor on this thread."

That's only because this forum is frequented by freelancers I assume much more ao than by clients.

The issue is in using my 3 milestone example, with a non-satisfactory end product the FL got to keep 1/3 to 2/3 of the cash anyway, and client loses 1/3 or 2/3 or even more of his cash with no hope of a refund. That is the real issue.

I am sure most FLs here are trustworthy and honest and also skilled which is why I came here..I am not doubting how good most are. It's simply not a level playing field with client taking on risk of losing lots of money with no satisfaction guaranty in the end..

The solution is changing busines model requiring FL gives full refund of all milestones if end-product not satisfactory. For example, if you buy a domain name via escrow.com they will not release any funds to seller unless buyer first approves it. That's how escrow should work. They are not judge and jury. Upwork escrow isn't a true escrow service.

[9d6dfbcc]

"You appear to be innately distrustful and suspicious and convinced that freelancers are on platforms with the main purpose of ripping off defenseless clients."

That is NOT CORRECT Petra. The issue has absolutely nothing to do with trust or suspicion. I really do not understand why everyone here is thinking that. It is all about the fact FL gets guaranteed non-refundable cash with milestone payments but client has no assurance at all project will be completed to his satisfaction. If job not finished any milestones paid should be refunded, imo. Why does no one here seem to comprehend that and blames it wrongly on trust!

[petra_r]

You know how the site works. It does not work in a way that allows you to feel safe. 

So surely the only possible conclusion can be that you don’t use it?

We can tell you until the cows come home that if you choose a well established freelancer with a long and successful track record and someone who would not risk their account for the sake of screwing you over, you are not comfortable to take that risk. You see danger of paying and not getting your project everywhere. 

So the only option you have, realistically, is not to use Upwork and get your project done locally.

[richard_wein]

David, the milestone system is intended to be used by clients checking the work at the end of each milestone, before proceeding to the next one. A client who uses the system that way is not taking the risk of wasting all his money, because he has verified at each milestone that he's getting what he's paying for.

It seems that you are unwilling (or feel unable) to work in that way, but instead want to only check the work at the end of the project. That's not a good way to run a software project of that size. As a programmer I would not be willing to work on that basis, regardless of the payment method. I want my client to check the progress of the work, to let me know if he's getting what he wants. I wouldn't want to go down the wrong path and have to redo a lot of work later, even if the client was paying me by the hour.

A recent Upwork client (on another sort of project) insisted that I do at most 3 hours work at a time, and then stop until he had reviewed the work. That was fine with me.

[9d6dfbcc]

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds good however a problem is most work done during milestone 1 and 2 is not that important vs the final milestone-3 programming. Code done at milestone 1 or 2 is worthless to me unless job completed. Milestone 3 is when the complex, technical and signficant work is done.

[wendy_writes]

Richard, your comments are equally relevant to writers, artists, etc. etc.   🙂

[9d6dfbcc]

that sounds good Petra but "a well established freelancer with a long and successful track record" does NOT really assure the job will be finished because certain aspects may turn-out being too technical or complex for the FL, or he/she may go out of business, go bankrupt, or even get hit by a truck. However, if that happens to the client the coder has substantial funds from milestones which are non-refundable so the FL still did ok financially in the end. How can the freelancers here ignore that issue?